19-06-2002 13:25									#91
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Natan, in 93-95, when the Oslo treaty actually looked like it led somewhere, he DID crack down. He arrested hundreds of militants. Your fellow apologists used to complain that he let them all free when the second intifada started, remember?

After the second intifada started the IDF made it pretty nigh impossible for him to arrest militants since the valiant IDF kept rocketing prisons... So if you want to blame someone for Arafat not cracking down on Hamas, blame it on your own Buther-in-chief.


BTW, Arafat has declared that he is against terrorism, not violence. I believe that the violence is against Arafats long term interests, but in the short term he can't be seen to be against the resistance, and consequently the violence. If Israeli ended the occupation, however, he would have the political capital to crack down on Hamas, if only to cement his own grasp on power.

	19-06-2002 13:30									#92
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Siro, Bromine is very toxic if inhaled, and it also burns on skin contact. It is also quite corrosive.

Yet, unless they were planning to throw glass flasks with neat bromine, it is completely useless as a weapon. Even so, a molotov cocktail works a lot better...

And you DID say that they were going to poison the water supply with it... If you want to retract it, fine with me. I'm curious regarding where you picked up the idea in the fist place though. My obvious guess would be that some israeli 'journalist' printed it in one of your 'trustworthy' papers... But that is of course just my prejudices at work. You could have made an honest mistake.

	19-06-2002 13:35									#93
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If you've made a habit of reading real news papers, you would have realized that CIA reports aren't exactly trusted in the US. The CIA can't assassinate people. If they want to act on their intelligence, they need to go through a court, and they will have to prove their claims. This is a real problem when it comes to exposing domestic spies, as putting the spy on the stand might reveal even more secrets than the spy did in the first place... Which means most spies get plea bargains.

I know the concept of fair trials are alien to you, so just take my word for it: In the civilized world that is how we do things. I a few hundred year, maybe your country will evolve into a civilized society to.

	19-06-2002 13:41									#94
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quote: In arabic, they do not say "It's immoral to hurt civilians".

Well, this was the big story a few weeks ago. He actually did condemn the suicide bombings in unequivocal terms. Learn to live with it.


How does it matter whether he had a 'basic law' or not? It is up to the palestinians to decide who they want as their ruler.


I don't really think you are in a position to complain about palestinan 'circus trials'. At least they have trials, which is one step up from Israel... the IDF has already said they plan to murder him, without even a pretense of a trial...

	19-06-2002 13:46									#95
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quote: Basically, you're an ignorant bigot and you know it. You form your opinion about what's hapenning according to your own prejudices and shorts and short bits you see on CNN and BBC and read about in The Economist. And then you ignore the fact that your opinion, based mostly on private opinions of journalists who simply requote official representatives, does not infact, show what occurs on the field. But it's ok. If you want to live in the shallow world BBC builds for you by interviewing officials, it's ok. Obviously nothing ever happens except things which are picked up by BBC.

Ah, so we are back to the 'CyberGnu refuses to accept biased media as trustworthy, therefore he is a bigot'. fits nicely next to the other accusations your brethren like to throw around, like 'CyberGnu is against aggression, therefore he is a nazi'.

Indulge me and explain again why I should trust Israeli media, which is openly biased and in best case misrepresenting the trusth, in worst case plain lying, over the NYT, which employes journalists to check their facts before they are printed.

Well, except for the obvious answer, that is: the NYT doesn't report what you have decided is truth.

	19-06-2002 14:03									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You mean the Canadian Airborne Brigade, with the bayonet incidents and barbecuing that kid?

They were airborne?
The 'peecekeeping' belgian unit that made troubles in Somaly were also airborne...
To use elite units as policemen
Now imagine what may happen if you had a soldier as president !

	19-06-2002 14:09									#97
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quote: You mean the Canadian Airborne Brigade, with the bayonet incidents and barbecuing that kid?

Something like that...

Bunch of knuckle-headed *****. They basically broke down the entire unit after that. Distributed most of the officers to other units, revamped training, etc. IIRC 4 people did time too, 2 on murder charges...

	19-06-2002 14:18									#98
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Elite soldiers are not peacekeeper. They are killers.

	19-06-2002 14:22									#99
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Our guys weren't there as peacekeepers.

	19-06-2002 14:25									#100
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It explain why they didn't keep the peace.

	19-06-2002 14:26									#101
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It doesn't explain why they would feel it necessary to start their own private war, though.

	19-06-2002 14:28									#102
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They were boring ?

	19-06-2002 14:29									#103
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Possibly. Maybe their steroid supply was tainted...

	19-06-2002 15:01									#104
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quote: Zevico, of course the Israelis don't think palestinians are evil. The palestinians are just animals, and animals don't have a concept of good and evil.

CyberGnu, All I can say is YOU SICK SICK ****. That is DISGUSTING, what you suggested, that Israelis think Palestinians are animals. To tell you exactly what an Israeli is like:
Imagine the average person, except that he knows hebrew and is jewish. Israelis are not some sort of nazis who think Palestinians are dirt. Yes, they are are extremely suspicious of palestinians, and for good reason-they tend to blow up in supermarkets and shopping centres. But they certainly do not think they are animals. To reiterate: Seek mental help, you sick, racist, ****.

	19-06-2002 16:52									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico CyberGnu, All I can say is YOU SICK SICK ****. That is DISGUSTING, what you suggested, that Israelis think Palestinians are animals. To tell you exactly what an Israeli is like: Imagine the average person, except that he knows hebrew and is jewish. Israelis are not some sort of nazis who think Palestinians are dirt. Yes, they are are extremely suspicious of palestinians, and for good reason-they tend to blow up in supermarkets and shopping centres. But they certainly do not think they are animals. To reiterate: Seek mental help, you sick, racist, ****.

Well that famous terrorist leader (and sometime Israeli PM) Menachim Begin is directly quoted as calling Palestinians as, wait for it... "Beasts on two legs"...

Now, correct me if I'm wrong - but a beast is an animal and vice versa? Now surely if the nation's PM thinks that Palestinians are animals, oh sorry - 'beasts'. Then the general populace, many of whom look up to him - also think the same thing...

As for using the word Nazi - you're the one mentioning it on this thread. Personally I prefer the term Zionist.

This is a genuinely heartening thread I have to say...

1) Siro is basically admitting that a significant proportion of the IDF are guilty of crimes against humanity/humiliation.

2) Natan has been *busted* by not being able to argue that if Sharon is not guilty for the actions of say 10% (figure quoted by Siro) of his soldiers - why should Arafat be guilty for the actions of say, using Siro's figure, 10% of the Palestinian population especially considering that Israel has pretty much destroyed the PA's police authority/stations/jails etc. Or the fact that they only have official authority over a minority of the West Bank anyway (a common misconception is that the PA has authority over the whole of the occupied territories... ). If we all cast our minds back, Israel actually tried to assassinate Palestinian activists in jail at the beginning of the intifada by targeting them with F-16's!!! No wonder Arafat can't catch anyone!!!

3) Eli's fantastic graphic! Thanks for that - it graphically illustrates Israel's designs on the occupied territory. Israel considers it part of 'Greater Israel'!!! That and the fact that the Pals are factionalised - you know what factions are right? They want different things! If they all wanted the same thing - wouldn't they be one big happy family???

Eli is merely illustrating just how little control Arafat has over these organisations because they all want different things...

IIRC Arafat was for a long time under threat of overthrow and assassination in the PLO as it splintered.

Funny how everyone mentions Hamas all the bleedin' time - as if to really expand on the point that Arafat's grip on power is very tenuous indeed Israel actually gave direct and indirect aid to Hamas in the late 70's and early '80's in an attempt to destabilise the PLO!!! Yes, Israel tried to stir the fires of Islamic extremism against PLO in much the same way that the CIA did with the Mujahideen against the Soviets...

Looks like both of these 'social experiments' have come home to roost!

Finally we've been seeing some more pristine examples of Israeli Apartheid going on - the 'Berlin Wall Mk2' for a start. The building of that wall IMO is the final condemnation of Israel's illegal settlements, proving once and for all that they are built on the stolen land of an occupied country!

Technically as it's occupied, the West Bank and Gaza inhabitants should be allowed free access. But they're not allow if they're Palestinians! If they're Israeli colonists OTOH they are treated with privilege, even getting Israeli-only roads to drive on in the heart of Palestinian land!!! That is the most blatant Apartheid!

Can Palestinians buy houses in the illegal Settlements???

No?

WHY NOT???

Could it be based on race, by any chance?

Isn't it the most ultimate irony that the very people that need low cost housing, $10,000 is mighty cheap, (Palestinian Refugees) are the very people who are physically being barred from buying these housing units being built on their very own land!!!

Worse still - they get their houses regularly bulldozed for extra measure!!!

This SH*T makes Apartheid look like chicken feed in comparison!

And people really wonder why the Pals resort to suicide bombing...

For more reading try an Israeli website I actually respect... www.btselem.org

	19-06-2002 19:35									#106
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Cyber:
http://www.meforum.org/meq/june96/klein.shtml

Terror attacks increased immensely when the PA took control. How do you explain that?

And if Hamas is really anti-Arafat, why do they keep disavowing any attempts to overthrow him? If Arafat really cracked down on him, why didn't they fight back?

	20-06-2002 01:16									#107
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Mobius, you're still an idiot.

You managed to decide that Eli's graphic was of Israeli emblems???

What a stupid *****

	20-06-2002 01:21									#108
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Siro... why don't you answer the rest of Mobius' post, especially about Israel giving money to Hamas to destablize the PLO?

	20-06-2002 04:52									#109
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Imran - I'm tired of his posts.

He constantly finds new 'evidence', takes them out of context or ingores everything besides things proving his point.

He is very enthusiastic about his posting, but his understanding strives to zero.

Him calling this situation worse than appartheid is lack of respect for victims of appartheid.


As for the issue, it's a rumor, which I've been trying to find support for in intelligence sources, and meanwhile can't say i'm convinced it's true, but I'm not ruling it out.

Next thing you'll say is that we have nuclear weapons

	20-06-2002 04:57									#110
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And besides, let's assume it's true.

The amount of money and weapons that Israel gave to Arafat after 1993, to crack down on Hamas and Jihad, is 1000 times greater than any resource we might ahve given Hamas.