20-06-2002 22:09									#1
	Oh those wacky enviromentalists... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, yesterday in my hometown of Missoula, 7 environmentalists managed to get themselves arrested. They are members of EarthFirst, and they are protesting the logging of the Bitterroot forest (right near where I now live, 40 miles south of missoula) which was burned in those bad fires 2 years ago. So they are standing on a bridge in missoula, waiting for a logging truck to come by, at which point, a few of them jump out in front to stop it. Then, two of them hook ropes to the truck and jump off of the bridge to unfurl some antiglobalization banner of theirs. It took the authorities several hours and resources to get them down, and the 7 of them are being charged with felony criminal endangerment for the danger that they put the authorities in.

Now, I support their legal rights to protest and stand up for what they believe in, but this is just going too far. They don't have any right to break the law and endanger others like this. If you're going to protest, do it legally, I say.

	20-06-2002 22:16									#2
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Yep, anything effective is always going too far.

Felony criminal endangerment is ridiculous.

	20-06-2002 22:27									#3
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These people had a cause they believed in. When corporations break the law in order to manipulate governments and destory the environment, people barely notice. When some people break the law in order to stop them, they are criticised.

And chegitz is right, the charges are ridiculous.

	20-06-2002 22:36									#4
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I don't think the charges are ridiculous at all. They put themselves in a dangerous position and the authorities in a dangerous position, simply because they knew it would delay the logging.

They should be locked up.

	20-06-2002 22:37									#5
	Country Mouse and other whacky cartoons Tired of ads?

I just happen to glimpse a little bit of an HBO Family cartoon called Country Mouse this morning, and here is a quote:

"He cuts down trees; he's a bad man!" Speaking about the antagonist- a burly, big bearded, flannel shirt, logger cap wearing man.

Cartoons like Captain Planet and these other eco-centric animated shows aimed at teaching children respect for mother earth are just hilarious. Don't the producers of this tree-hugging crap know that the logging industry provides the most basic materials for building houses and other buildings? And obviously, deforestation isn't as big a problem as these hippies think, as I doubt the logging industry is about to cut their own throats by eradicating their source of income.

	20-06-2002 22:40									#6
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Why are they logging burned wood? Has it any value. And why do these activists want to protect burned logs?

	20-06-2002 22:43									#7
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I think that those people could have had a more positive effect on the environment if they had gone out and planted some trees, or organized some type of fundraiser/event to do so.

-Arrian

	20-06-2002 22:49									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin And why do these activists want to protect burned logs?

(natural) forest fires play a vital role in the eco-system, killing off large vegatition and allowing new plants to grow in place, making sure it doesn't become overgrown. Simply because there was a forest fire there 2 years ago does not mean it is some sort of desolate wasteland which is incapable of ever regrowing or supporting life again.

	20-06-2002 22:53									#9
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Yes, I know that. Why are they taking the loggs then?

	20-06-2002 22:53									#10
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Yes, we must stop using the most renewable resource, so we can rely more on Plastic and other enviorofriendly building materials.

Save the planet.

RAH

	20-06-2002 22:55									#11
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I want the Styrene Big Mac containers back NOW!!!

	20-06-2002 22:55									#12
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The environmentalists claim that the earth will take care of itself and everything will be just peachy. The salvage logging being done here does produce useful lumber and also helps to reduce the risk of another bad forest fire. Considering the Forest Service made the plans for the salvage logging, I think they know just a little more about protecting the forest and also getting use out of it than these tree-huggers who just don't want any trees cut down.

	20-06-2002 22:57									#13
	Re: Country Mouse and other whacky cartoons Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba Don't the producers of this tree-hugging crap know that the logging industry provides the most basic materials for building houses and other buildings?

Don't you have bricks?

Tree-hugging is great

	20-06-2002 22:59									#14
	Re: Re: Country Mouse and other whacky cartoons Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Tree-hugging is great

Ohh!! Go suck a log!!

	20-06-2002 23:00									#15
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Tree-hugging? Frankly I'd like to hug people

	20-06-2002 23:00									#16
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Also, the main reason that someone wanting to protect the environment would be worried here is because of the need to construct more logging roads to get to the burned timber.

	20-06-2002 23:04									#17
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I don't know enough about the logging situation to have a comment about the validity of their cause. I protest against the law enforcement on general principle though.

	20-06-2002 23:26									#18
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I believe we need to keep the environment. I dont believe we should return to a pre industrial society to do so. In this case, I agree that loggers arent going to cut down their own jobs. Environmentalists think industry is all about the money anyway. It would be more productive for them to plant trees than endanger human lives.

	20-06-2002 23:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think that those people could have had a more positive effect on the environment if they had gone out and planted some trees, or organized some type of fundraiser/event to do so. -Arrian

Forrests are more than trees. When you detree an area, you rather majorly impact the local environment. Fund raising and organizing are actions geared at changing the future. In this extremely corporate friendly environment, doing nothing while waiting for a more democracy friendy government to come to power is to leave yourself important, while the destruction of the local environment is completed. Given how tight the Dem's are with the timer industry, it's not likly to change much when the Dem's regain control of the government.

Anunikoba, while you may like to think that the logging industry wouldn't cut its own throat, it has done, largely that. There are many recent ex-logging towns, where the local economy was destroyed once the area was over cut and the companies moved on.

	20-06-2002 23:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yes, we must stop using the most renewable resource, so we can rely more on Plastic and other enviorofriendly building materials. Save the planet. RAH

There are eco-alternatives to trees for the number one tree product, paper. We could save a lot of trees by switching to hemp paper, for example.

	20-06-2002 23:42									#21
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Of course, wacky environmentalists still don't manage to be as wacky as wacky anti-environmentalist Republican administrations.

	20-06-2002 23:43									#22
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Gott in Himmel!

	20-06-2002 23:44									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't know enough about the logging situation to have a comment about the validity of their cause. I protest against the law enforcement on general principle though.

Law enforcement is against your principles?

	20-06-2002 23:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There are eco-alternatives to trees for the number one tree product, paper. We could save a lot of trees by switching to hemp paper, for example.

Hemp yields 3X more pulp per acre than trees do, and it requires far less pesticides. Its a no-brainer really. Im happy to say that New Zealand is growing hemp.

	20-06-2002 23:50									#25
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quote: . "To suggest that toxic sludge is good for fish because it prevents them from being caught by man is like suggesting that we club baby seals to death to prevent them from being eaten by sharks. It's ludicrous," said Rep. George P. Radanovich, California Republican and chairman of the subcommittee on national parks, recreation and public lands. "This is one of the most frightening examples of bureaucratic ineptitude and backward logic I have ever seen," Mr. Radanovich said

If it's being done right, anywhere in the world, it ISN'T being done by the US government. Yeesh.

-Arrian

	20-06-2002 23:53									#26
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A lot of this trouble could have been avoided in the first place had folks replanted what they chopped down from the get-go (which, in North America, would probably date back to the 1700s and 1800s, in terms of large-scale clear-cutting of forests).

Then there'd be no real debate about forestry because someone, way back when, would have had the foresight to replant what was removed, thus ensuring trees for future recreation, beauty and building material. It's too bad replanting didn't become widespread until the mid-1900s (guessing on that date).

Gatekeeper

	21-06-2002 00:14									#27
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Where I live there are plenty of trees for everyone. The idea that trees should not be cut is absurd. The land I own was logged about 20 years ago and you would never know. I have two huge hemlocks shading the house along with one of the largest White Oaks in the area. The rest is covered with medium sized pines, oaks, and etc.. The key is not to clear cut. We frown on that here and we are opposed to the large paper mills who do that. Like anything else there is a reasonable solution that does not require fanatics to chain themselves to a dead tree.

	21-06-2002 00:35									#28
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Yeah, chaining to live trees is more effective

	21-06-2002 00:56									#29
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Lincoln, the problem with "plenty of trees for everyone," is that if you aren't careful, soon you have no trees for anyone. My understanding is, that as heavily forested as it is, Jacksonville has seen significant tree loss in the past decade, despite an anti-cutting ordinence (the city refused to enforce it). Many of the older residents complain the city isn't as forested as it once was. I know that where I am is significant;y forested, but were it not for a referendum passed a few years back, forcing the city to enforce the tree cut ban, that might not be so (trees can be cut under the law, but they must be replaced).

Easter Island used to be a heavily forested island. Now it doesn't have a single tree.

	21-06-2002 01:54									#30
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The point is proper management of the forests. There has been no loss of trees where I live even though the area has been logged several times. It is a renewable resource like tomatoes or wheat. And the idea of not harvesting the dead trees (that still contain plenty of useful wood) after a fire is absurd. I agree however that the jerks who come into an area and clear cut the woods should be stopped.