22-06-2002 00:41									#181
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Ming: I'm the first to admit that I'm not an expert on the american consitution. I would be against that system myself as you are. As for the 'original' subject; I don't see Neds point of making other countries create federations and electoral colleges at all.

	22-06-2002 00:42									#182
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave well a referral to a situation USA was in the last elections... a close tie can happen in a state with the total amount of people in the country being 20 times or more higher a similar tie is much less likely to happen.

On the other hand... you have the State of Illinois. Here, Gore won. Even without all the typical ghost votes in Chicago, he would have won the state anyway.

But all those extra votes might have been the reason why Gore actually won the popular vote. What happened in Chicago happened in many of the other old city democratic machines. All of those votes add up, and could have also had a similar effect as to what you point out in Florida. Both systems have their problems

	22-06-2002 00:46									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin As for the 'original' subject;

Oh... you mean European Hypocracy

You don't need to be an expert on the American Constitution to disagree with the Electorial College System. I was just pointing out that since it is system we are using, it is unfair to say that it is "corrupting" when what you really mean is that it provides different results than other methods of voting

	22-06-2002 00:48									#184
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Yes, that was why I used " ". As a European hypocrite it's not always easy to find the right word.

	22-06-2002 00:51									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran, I don't want to get into a discussion of our constitution, but if we are trying to spread "American" doctrine, what is it if its is not that? What we are is embodied in our constitution. Then don't agree. But spreading the American doctrine is the idea of human rights, democratic republic, respect for basic freedoms of speech and religion. Our Constitution embodies those, but states do not have to accept the entirty of the Constitution to suscribe to the American doctrine.

But of course we believe in these things. We also believe in the protection of intellectual property set forth in the constitution. This has brought us the industry that makes us wealthy. But I don't see that on you list. Why?

A government of separaton of powers is another.

No, others don't have to adopt 100% of our constitution, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't advocate all of it (of course, adapted to the particular circumstances of the region).

What really bothers me, Imran, is guys like Carter going to Cuba and apologizing for the US not having an universal public health care system as does Cuba. Universal health care is not a core American value.

	22-06-2002 00:56									#186
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever stuff

Answering stuff

quote: more stuff

More answering stuff.

Sorry Ming, should have looked more closely.

Not sorry to this individual, however.

	22-06-2002 00:57									#187
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Umm, Chris, did ya miss Ming's post about personal insults?

-Arrian

	22-06-2002 00:59									#188
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Chris... I don't care who started it.

NO MORE PERSONAL INSULTS... PERIOD!

	22-06-2002 00:59									#189
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That was an exclamation mark, O Merciless One.

	22-06-2002 01:01									#190
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Yikes, sorry Ming, I didn't see the warning.

My appologies.

	22-06-2002 01:02									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Both systems have their problems

Always true... but my opinion is that popular vote is what more people want - as the whole - therefore fairer in my eyes. (apart from the lesser chance for a tie, which is also an advantage)

	22-06-2002 01:07									#192
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As the states are represented in other parts of the goverment (as for example 2 places in the senate regardless of size) it would for a poor and ignorant hippocrite like me seem that the states already have representation so and a popular vote for the president would seem well in order.

	22-06-2002 01:07									#193
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Always true... but my opinion is that popular vote is what more people want - as the whole - therefore fairer in my eyes.

As a life long resident of Illinois, and an expert on Chicago politics... I laugh at the concept of a fairer vote.
In Chicago, dead people vote. The motto of the city...

Vote Early... Vote Often...

If the federal marshalls came into Chicago and other big Democratic Cities... it's very possible that they could prove that Bush actually won the popular vote in the last election

	22-06-2002 01:12									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Ming As a life long resident of Illinois, and an expert on Chicago politics... I laugh at the concept of a fairer vote. In Chicago, dead people vote. The motto of the city... Vote Early... Vote Often... If the federal marshalls came into Chicago and other big Democratic Cities... it's very possible that they could prove that Bush actually won the popular vote in the last election

well that sounds an awful lot like corruption to me ...

"In Chicago, dead people vote. The motto of the city..."

I guess in Zimbabve dead vote too

	22-06-2002 01:15									#195
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Chicago has a long and unfortunate history of shady elections. But somehow I doubt it's like the good 'ole days of Machine politics... if it was, wouldn't the Republicans be screaming bloody murder?

-Arrian

	22-06-2002 01:17									#196
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave well that sounds an awful lot like corruption to me ...

No kididng, because it is a lot of corruption... that's why I always laugh when people say a "popular" vote system is more fair. Again... ther are problems with both systems

	22-06-2002 01:18									#197
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Chicago is pretty infamous for that...

That's another serious problem that became pretty clear last election (as we can't forget even if we want to). In other countries with about the same level as rich democraties there's no way that a election is that easy to fix. Just that one has to register to vote seems a bit peculiar and that the elections doesn't have to be on sundays.

	22-06-2002 01:25									#198
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Krop,
you have to register to vote in the Uk, and it's hard getting credit, a mortgage etc. if youre not on the register

	22-06-2002 01:28									#199
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Perhaps Australian solution that everyone should vote or face a fine is the best.. at least we would make citizens think for 1 day in four / five years

quote: No kididng, because it is a lot of corruption... that's why I always laugh when people say a "popular" vote system is more fair. Again... ther are problems with both systems

huh... there are other things in the system that need to change first, that is true.

	22-06-2002 01:31									#200
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Perhaps Australian solution that everyone should vote or face a fine is the best.. at least we would make citizens think for 1 day in four / five years quote: No kididng, because it is a lot of corruption... that's why I always laugh when people say a "popular" vote system is more fair. Again... ther are problems with both systems huh... there are other things in the system that need to change first, that is true.

but what if none of the candidates represents your views?

	22-06-2002 01:37									#201
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever but what if none of the candidates represents your views?

I REALLY wish we had a "none of the above" choice in our elections... and if it won, new candidates would have to be picked by all parties

	22-06-2002 01:42									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I REALLY wish we had a "none of the above" choice in our elections... and if it won, new candidates would have to be picked by all parties

Than we woudl have an election loop as the "none of the above" would be the winner all the time.

But if we added that the candidates go to state prison for a year if "none of the above" was elected than we would have some good promises thrown at us

	22-06-2002 01:44									#203
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We have blanks here. Use them all the time. Very nice.

	22-06-2002 01:47									#204
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Kropotkin, My only point is that if the US is going to go around the world advocating others change the way they do things, i.e., promoting "American" values, I think we American ought to agree on what they are. I would not agree, for example, with Carter that a universal public health care system is an American value.

We "share" a lot of values, such as the right of free speech, with others in the world, particularly with the Europeans. If what Imran means by advocating American values reduces only to advocating values broadly shared by others, then why should we bother? Since the Europeans broadly share these values, let them take the lead in spreading these values to places in the world that do not have them today.

What makes America unique, however, is our constitution. There are very few countries in the world that are even remotely structured like the United States. Most would say that the US form of government is purely inconsequential to our success. But I would disagree.

I find it somewhat pathetic that the Afghans are now struggling with basic governmental structure issues. Some advocate a legislature elected to represent the population evenly. Others, the tribes evenly.

The US system accomodates both. They should simply adopt the US constitution with the tribal areas as "states." It would fit Afghanistan well.

	22-06-2002 01:47									#205
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I have a friend who always writes in his own name as a "write in candidate"... So when the newpaper publishes the official final results, he gets his name mentioned in the paper

	22-06-2002 01:48									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I REALLY wish we had a "none of the above" choice in our elections... and if it won, new candidates would have to be picked by all parties

but how long before some politcian changes his name to "none of the above" and cashes in?

never overestimate the electorate, remember Florida?

	22-06-2002 01:56									#207
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Ned: It of cource depends on how much value one estimates to formal institutions as a constitution. i would like to stress the importance of informal institutions as well. I'm not that impressed with it at all as I don't see it as anything unique about it in a wider meaning of the word. I'm more for the parliementary system and proportional elections myself if I had to make a pragmatic choice.

As for the afghanian situation your idea of dividing it into "states" is at first glance not a bad idea at all. As you might remember I took up the adoption of the British system in colonies that went bad as it meant that one group took control (the british system is really a form of 4 year elected dictatorships). A federal system is possibly a lot better than that. Federations are not however, as far as I know, an american invention.

	22-06-2002 02:05									#208
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quote: Federations are not however, as far as I know, an american invention.

True, but it took two attempts at drafting a constitution (Confederation first), a civil war, and a long political development we see in our amendments to get to where we are today. We should recommend the US system to others as a well developed and nearly "perfect" system. Others system will of course work, but ours works very well indeed.

A major benefit of adopting our system is that there is a 200 year history of Supreme Court case law that breathes life into our constitution.

	22-06-2002 02:07									#209
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200 years that it has used to adopt to and change the US. Might no at all be a good idea to apply to another country in a totally different situation. Besides, it's not the only political system with a long history.

	22-06-2002 04:57									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber We have to fill in the time before Asher and KH come online somehow.

Are you saying that we fight?