21-06-2002 23:23									#151
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Chris: Sorry for the threadjack.

	21-06-2002 23:27									#152
	Got spare money?

We could probably unify the world against the threat of another Paulie Shore or Carrot Top movie.

	21-06-2002 23:27									#153
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Arrian, seriously, I think within 300 years, we'll have, at the UN be the United State of Earth (kinda). I don't mean like what the USA is, but rather like the EU is. An overarching structure that has minor power. Or better yet, like the Articles of Confederation.

	21-06-2002 23:33									#154
	Suffering from ads?

So Imran. Your Utopia for the human race is a huge inefficient bureaucracy controlled by the french that think out strange laws that no one obey?

	21-06-2002 23:39									#155
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We could probably unify the world against the threat of another Paulie Shore or Carrot Top movie.

That is a cause that I can get behind

	21-06-2002 23:40									#156
	Increase the size of your Attachments

In and "idealized" stable world, the great powers would stay at peace with each other, take care of local eruptions within their sphere of influence and not interfere in the affairs of other powers spheres. During the cold war, the US left the courtries behind the Iron Curtain to the mercies of the USSR. Except for some skirmishes in Berlin and Greece, the USSR left Western Europe alone.

Post-cold war, Clinton tried to let the Europeans take the lead in the chaos surrounding the collapse of Yugoslavia. After Sebrenicia, we were forced to act on humanitarian grounds. Once we got involved, we were able to help impose peace, and even "liberated" Kosovo with our air power.

But I personally believe it is time for the Euro's to take charge of affairs of Europe and pull their own weight.

In other areas of the world, I fundamentally agree that we should not get involved unless our interests are threatened. The al Qaida war on us has forced us to get more actively involved in both the ME and in the Pakistan-India disputes. But if a war breaks out in Africa or South America, I would prefer just to stay out of it.

As for spreading our "doctrine," I still am surprised that not one single nation has adopted our constitutional structure despite its obvious merits. Why?

	21-06-2002 23:40									#157
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We could probably unify the world against the threat of another Paulie Shore or Carrot Top movie.

Movie fans of the world unite!



-Arrian
what's goin' on buuuuuuuuuudy?

	21-06-2002 23:42									#158
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin So Imran. Your Utopia for the human race is a huge inefficient bureaucracy controlled by the french that think out strange laws that no one obey?

Yeah, sounds about right, actually. If the government is ineffectual, they can't screw things up. And governments seem to always figure out how to screw things up.

-Arrian

	21-06-2002 23:46									#159
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: So Imran. Your Utopia for the human race is a huge inefficient bureaucracy controlled by the french that think out strange laws that no one obey?

Controlled by the French? Sacre Bleu!

Of course it is going to be controlled by Americans, who know a little something about bureaucracy of our own .

	21-06-2002 23:47									#160
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ned As for spreading our "doctrine," I still am surprised that not one single nation has adopted our constitutional structure despite its obvious merits. Why?

Well there has been a few iirc. consitutional structures are often chosen because of a historical process or certain unique conditions. At the state of the states of today there's hardly a "perfect" system.

Many former English colonies for example adopted a british model that turned out pretty bad due to so called clientism (they voted for their "chief" not out of political positions per se). Not to say that the **** wouldn't have hit the fan anyhow.

I'm not finding the US structure to be better than many others. It has worked pretty well but it's all down to personal leanings and probably old habit.

	21-06-2002 23:49									#161
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: As for spreading our "doctrine," I still am surprised that not one single nation has adopted our constitutional structure despite its obvious merits. Why?

Is this a case of forced blindness or what? Many African nations have constitutions that are somewhat based on our own. They also have constitutions that are influenced by the European system for the simple reason that proportional representation is easier in countries where many are illiterate (they can recognize party symbols).

Most new Latin American democracies also have the US's model in mind as well, so I don't know where you get your statement from.

	21-06-2002 23:59									#162
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As far as I know, Imran, most of the countries that have adopted the US model have not adopted the whole it, including the amendments. Do other nations with a US model, for example, have state's rights like the US? Do they have an electoral college?

But, for the sake of argument, why don't you cite the country that has the closest comparison to the US constitution. I'll take a look at it and report back.

	22-06-2002 00:03									#163
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: As far as I know, Imran, most of the countries that have adopted the US model have not adopted the whole it, including the amendments. Do other nations with a US model, for example, have state's rights like the US? Do they have an electoral college?

Why would they want a carbon copy of the US government? No country has an exact copy of any government, even British colonies don't have exactly British governments.

It's ludicrous to think that they should adopt all of our amendments or have states' rights, when they don't even have states.

I mean seriously, do you actually think that your post made any sense in this discussion?

	22-06-2002 00:04									#164
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

State's right? Correct me if I have missed the meaning of the word but isn't that kind of pointless if the country isn't a federation?

	22-06-2002 00:05									#165
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Reds4Ever, another "genius" who likes to attack me, did I hurt your feelings sweetums? I hope so.

You told me I'd made your 'ignore' list? Am I too interesting for you to stick to it? I'm flattered!


And as for 'attacking' you, wouldn't you wipe dog **** off YOUR shoe?

	22-06-2002 00:08									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A country should pick a system that best suits it not what the prevailing trends are. Liberia has, or had, a constitution like that of the US but it didn't matter much when some of the poeple there discarded it. Like I have been saying all along, do what is in the best interest of your country. Don't rely on the US or anyone else to say "here, use this system. It is best for you" And that is exactly what we should do.

	22-06-2002 00:08									#167
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: State's right? Correct me if I have missed the meaning of the word but isn't that kind of pointless if the country isn't a federation?

Exactly what I thought . Ned, unfortunetly, believes every country is like the US.

And Mexico has very close similarities to our Constitution. Differences include proportial representation and 1/3 of Senators are elected nation-wide, but they do have some federalism and even an electoral college.

	22-06-2002 00:11									#168
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Like I have been saying all along, do what is in the best interest of your country. Don't rely on the US or anyone else to say "here, use this system. It is best for you" And that is exactly what we should do.

How does that fit in a world that is becoming increasingly smaller and smaller, where multinational corporations don't care which country they are in? Where the world is being more and more homogenized in terms of culture and ideals because of the closing in of the world. The European nations already realized this, hence the EU. The rest of the world will soon follow in joining together, I bet.

	22-06-2002 00:12									#169
	Increase Your PM Length

And why should other countries introduce a electoral college? It might have been a good idea back then but today it's more or less pointless and also runs the risk of "corrupting" the results of the elections.

	22-06-2002 00:16									#170
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Like I have been saying all along, do what is in the best interest of your country. Don't rely on the US or anyone else to say "here, use this system. It is best for you" And that is exactly what we should do. How does that fit in a world that is becoming increasingly smaller and smaller, where multinational corporations don't care which country they are in? Where the world is being more and more homogenized in terms of culture and ideals because of the closing in of the world. The European nations already realized this, hence the EU. The rest of the world will soon follow in joining together, I bet.

Do you think countries should be forced into accepting this? If you seem to think that the world is going in this direction then you should allow them to come to that conclusion on their own. The EU had their reasons for the forming the Union that they did. Apparently though the UK at least seems to think that intergratioin isn't all that since they balked on the Euro. But I suppose you think the Govermnment there should do it anyway regardless of what the people want. After all the leaders know best right. The people are really just an annoying detail.

	22-06-2002 00:25									#171
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin and also runs the risk of "corrupting" the results of the elections.

First... I think we should do away with the Electoral College and go to a country wide popular vote.

But after saying that...

Your comment doesn't make any sense. The electoral system is the system we use now. How does it run the risk of corrupting itself? If you are implying that it provides different results than a popular vote system, you are correct. But that's not the rules we use here, so it's not "corrupting" anything.

	22-06-2002 00:27									#172
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Ming First... I think we should do away with the Electoral College and go to a country wide popular vote. But after saying that... Your comment doesn't make any sense. The electoral system is the system we use now. How does it run the risk of corrupting itself? If you are implying that it provides different results than a popular vote system, you are correct. But that's not the rules we use here, so it's not "corrupting" anything.

Even Ming has joined in on the threadjack.

	22-06-2002 00:29									#173
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Even Ming has joined in on the threadjack.

Darn right I have... and a few people should be very happy. Because the next person that throws out a personal insult in this tread will be toast.

So I recommend people chill and either stay on topic or not... but no more insults...

	22-06-2002 00:31									#174
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I do think it's a lot of for fuzz for something that's quite simple. As iirc two states uses other systems than the rest it's also not totally concistent.

	22-06-2002 00:32									#175
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Imran, I don't want to get into a discussion of our constitution, but if we are trying to spread "American" doctrine, what is it if its is not that? What we are is embodied in our constitution. If you start taking parts and pieces away and say that this "part" is what American truly stands for, then I do not agree.

	22-06-2002 00:32									#176
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ming Darn right I have... and a few people should be very happy. Because the next person that throws out a personal insult in this tread will be toast. So I recommend people chill and either stay on topic or not... but no more insults...

good thing that isn't retroactive.

	22-06-2002 00:34									#177
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ming First... I think we should do away with the Electoral College and go to a country wide popular vote. But after saying that... Your comment doesn't make any sense. The electoral system is the system we use now. How does it run the risk of corrupting itself? If you are implying that it provides different results than a popular vote system, you are correct. But that's not the rules we use here, so it's not "corrupting" anything.

well a referral to a situation USA was in the last elections... a close tie can happen in a state with the total amount of people in the country being 20 times or more higher a similar tie is much less likely to happen.

	22-06-2002 00:34									#178
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Do you think countries should be forced into accepting this? If you seem to think that the world is going in this direction then you should allow them to come to that conclusion on their own. The EU had their reasons for the forming the Union that they did. Apparently though the UK at least seems to think that intergratioin isn't all that since they balked on the Euro. But I suppose you think the Govermnment there should do it anyway regardless of what the people want. After all the leaders know best right. The people are really just an annoying detail.

Countries are ALREADY forced into accepting this. Look at globalization. Countries in the 3rd World don't have a choice, they MUST liberalize or else they won't succeed.

Yes, countries can come to that conclusion on their own, but I don't want to see my country left behind. I want my state to be at the forefront, so it helps to dictate the terms, instead of coming late to the party so it has to follow what others have made. We SHOULD have a say in this new world order, but if we close up and defend 'our interests', we won't. And then when we are forced to join, because of the overwhelming tide, we will be joining something that we haven't been instrumental in creating.

And my idea of Democratic Republic is that the representatives should do what they believe is best for the country, not simply to listen to the whims of the uninformed electorate.

	22-06-2002 00:36									#179
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I do think it's a lot of for fuzz for something that's quite simple. As iirc two states uses other systems than the rest it's also not totally concistent.

Again... I don't agree with the system... but, that's the whole point... the power of the states in our Union. It's not meant to be consistent... It gives each state the right to make their own determination.

	22-06-2002 00:37									#180
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Imran, I don't want to get into a discussion of our constitution, but if we are trying to spread "American" doctrine, what is it if its is not that? What we are is embodied in our constitution.

Then don't agree. But spreading the American doctrine is the idea of human rights, democratic republic, respect for basic freedoms of speech and religion. Our Constitution embodies those, but states do not have to accept the entirty of the Constitution to suscribe to the American doctrine.