21-06-2002 21:04									#121
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"replace it with a charge of having been fooled"

I wouldn't call it "fooled". Rather, outmatched.

I-told-you-sos aside, I guess the dips did the best they could with a weak position (even though they've lost the debate in my mind, they might still carry the day--we'll see).

I've never agreed with the hypocrisy charge, even when it has been spelled correctly. "Inconsistent" is a better description.

	21-06-2002 21:07									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It is A Constitution, and all constitutions have an amendment mechanism. Even the UN does. So stop treating it like our Constitution is someone special comparatively. Stop trying to say our Constiution has no parellels with this, because it does, very much so. The Rome Statute is amended by 2/3rd of the Assembly of States Party to the agreement, those are your represenatives.

Well it is special to me Imran. Your lack of respect makes your current views more clear. Thank you for showing what you really think of our laws and where you stand on that issue. The Europeans can have their court, which they make deals to circumvent, and can do the business of moral crusading for the world. It is time for us to opt out of that line of work. I grew up thinking that the US had a duty to get involved but in the end it just isn't worth it. We should continue to seek out and destroy those who pose a threat to us, and close allies, and let others have the job of doing the moralizing. Quite simply we don't need to have laws and regulations that are passed in Rome, or London or the Hague when we hate most of the laws passed in Washington or our state capitals. If you want to live under such regulations and play the diplomat, by all means move to a country that respects those far away out of touch world administrators.

Move to Canada

	21-06-2002 21:12									#123
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"The Europeans can have their court, which they make deals to circumvent, and can do the business of moral crusading for the world."

I think we're at 67 or so ratifications now. That goes a bit beyond europe.

I wonder where do you get the "moral crusade" idea from ? We didn't come up with the "axis of evil".

	21-06-2002 21:52									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "The Europeans can have their court, which they make deals to circumvent, and can do the business of moral crusading for the world." I think we're at 67 or so ratifications now. That goes a bit beyond europe. I wonder where do you get the "moral crusade" idea from ? We didn't come up with the "axis of evil".

That's why I said we should get out of the business of the moral crusade and let countries like those do what they want in their part of the world. Your right Roland. Ecuador, Nauru, and Venezuela were the real power behind the Statute. Europe just went along for the ride.

	21-06-2002 21:53									#125
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quote: Originally posted by GP Calley got 20 years if I remember. The sentence was commuted so that he only served about 6 months. But all our ICC proponents have said that cases where the host country tries the case will not be reviewed by the ICC. Get the story straight.

The reason why I said "don't bother" is because I knew what punishments were levied.

That means I knew that most of the offenders were not tried at all.

I had the story straight. Unless, of course, Calley did all the killing and raping all by himself in one very busy day....

	21-06-2002 22:03									#126
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quote: Your lack of respect makes your current views more clear.

The US Constitution is a constitution. Simply because it is the US's doesn't mean it is any better, inherantly, than anyone elses. What it states may be considered better than what other constitutions' state, but it is still just a constitution. I'm sorry I'm not more like David Floyd , but I don't think that our constitution is superior simply because it is ours.

And Spray, you are the definition of 'boche-Americain'. You and your ilk are the reason that other countries hate Americans and our belief that we are superior. There is no need to look down at the rest of world. I hope they will look at us with pity and let us join once we've fallen from our pearch and are no longer the superpower.

	21-06-2002 22:19									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Your lack of respect makes your current views more clear. The US Constitution is a constitution. Simply because it is the US's doesn't mean it is any better, inherantly, than anyone elses. What it states may be considered better than what other constitutions' state, but it is still just a constitution. I'm sorry I'm not more like David Floyd , but I don't think that our constitution is superior simply because it is ours. And Spray, you are the definition of 'boche-Americain'. You and your ilk are the reason that other countries hate Americans and our belief that we are superior. There is no need to look down at the rest of world. I hope they will look at us with pity and let us join once we've fallen from our pearch and are no longer the superpower.

Your an example of an elititist snob who thinks that those that think different from you are somehow less important and that you really know what is best for everyone. You think too much of yourself and think that you are somehow above the rest of us. It's people like you that will ruin this country by doing the cool international thing, while what is in our best interest is not done. I hope they give you a desk job somewhere out of the way so that people with a little sense actually make the decisions.

I am for taking care of our many problems that we face and not doing something just because someone in Europe or somewhere else says its the moral thing to do.

Note-See how it feels for someone that doesn't know you to make all these observations. You still have the little boy mentality Imran despite all your education. When you go into the real word away from the sheltered univerisity maybe you will see things differently.

	21-06-2002 22:27									#128
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In this case I actually do know better than you . The 'cool international thing' is in our interest. You would rather be the bully. The guy that doesn't want any friends and says he can do everything by himself. And then when you need some friends try to threaten others into going along with you.

You are a snob that believes you don't need anyone else at all. That thinks the ideas of other countries aren't worth ****. You believe the only good ideas come from your country. You are an arrogant piece of **** that doesn't care about the rest of the world. Self-centered, spoiled brat .

I hope you never get in a position to influence any policy, because your answer would be 'we are better than anyone else, so forget them'. You would crawl back into an isolationist shell and decide to go back 100 years in time. Despicable.

	21-06-2002 22:33									#129
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Roland, I wasn't reffering to you, in fact, dispite our constant little banter, I find your more even minded then most.
Not many will admit any error, I do, and you also, which is why I will always answer you in threads and ignore lesser characters like the Swede, that dispicable little racist that hides behind a suedo-intellectual veneer.

The thread was to show some people (not you per see Roland) that they shouldn't jump to conclusions and launch attacks so quickly, and maybe wake up some others on just what their nations are up too.
Of course, in the playing out of these events, children with grudges rear their ugly heads (like the Swede and the two brit babies) but that is acceped as an "occupational" hazard.

Most where interested in the content of the information, and it's effect on US opinion vis-a-vis the world court.
This kind of underhand play doesn't sit well in the US, if it had been done above board, and the same rights and privallges given to the US, thereis every chance that the USA would ratify the WC accords and that body would have US support.

As it stands, it's viewed as more Clintonian backbending, and is a dead issue for the time being.

	21-06-2002 22:36									#130
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Are you really this stupid Imran or do you just want to fight?

I am for taking care of our problems first.
I am for helping those countries that are our close allies in certain circumstances.
I am for our laws taking precedent over something devised in another country.
I am for staying the hell out of the business of countries that have nothing to do with us.

Is that clear Imran? Do you need me to tell your daddy what I said so you will know?

Apparently you care more about the world community than the one you live in.

And Imran, your little boy antics are so cute. You must be the king of your playground.

	21-06-2002 22:41									#131
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So you keep saying. Even though you believe that the US is superior to everyone else. You even said so in your remarks with the constitution. Yes, everyone should bow down to us, right? We should be isolationists because it is better if we pull away. Like after WW1, right?

And yes, I do care about the world community a bit more than you do, which would be hard not to, because you simply don't give a damn!

Your snobbery is repulsive. Though you must be very popular with your 'America First' Party members

	21-06-2002 22:43									#132
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Come on guys, not in front of the euros.

	21-06-2002 22:46									#133
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Ooops, sorry Chris

We'll take it inside.

	21-06-2002 22:48									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So you keep saying. Even though you believe that the US is superior to everyone else. You even said so in your remarks with the constitution. Yes, everyone should bow down to us, right? We should be isolationists because it is better if we pull away. Like after WW1, right? And yes, I do care about the world community a bit more than you do, which would be hard not to, because you simply don't give a damn! Your snobbery is repulsive. Though you must be very popular with your 'America First' Party members

You keep believing that Imran. Keep seeing what you want to see and if your self imposed superiority makes you feel better, then who am I to say you should dump it.

	21-06-2002 22:49									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Come on guys, not in front of the euros.

-Arrian

	21-06-2002 22:50									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Come on guys, not in front of the euros.

We have to fill in the time before Asher and KH come online somehow.

	21-06-2002 22:50									#137
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Just because I'm on the pathway to the future and you are on the way to the past is no reason to be jealous .

	21-06-2002 22:55									#138
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Somehow a future dictated by those in far away places doesn't appeal to me too much.

	21-06-2002 22:59									#139
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That is because you still think of it as them.

	21-06-2002 23:03									#140
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quote: Does the UK let minor civil servants have this much power? I would think that they would have more control over their minor civil servants than this.

quote: Minor civil servants don't have the power to negotiate something of that magnitude. I would assume that either the Defense minister or PM would be the only ones with that power.

I don't see it as a particularly large treaty, and hence one not deserving of the PMs attention. He's a hypocrite, but not to such a blatant extent. Probably negotiated by the same person that secured the abandoned airbase and fresh lavatory paper for the troops.

	21-06-2002 23:06									#141
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You have been watching Star Trek haven't you Imran?

Don't tell me you have gone gene roddenbery on us.

	21-06-2002 23:07									#142
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Finally! A split in the right!

	21-06-2002 23:09									#143
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Finally! A split in the right!

Compared to you, everyone is on the right.

	21-06-2002 23:10									#144
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True.

	21-06-2002 23:11									#145
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No, I don't watch Star Trek .

I just think with the advancements in communication and travel that the nation-state is soon to be obsolete (within 200 years). A global community is arising and it bound to get closer and closer as the years pass. I wouldn't be suprised to see by 2300 a United States of Earth.

	21-06-2002 23:13									#146
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I think it will take longer than that, Imran. There are a lot of compatability issues that have to be taken care of first. A LOT of 'em. But it's a nice dream.

-Arrian

	21-06-2002 23:16									#147
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300 years isn't a looong time when you consider 300 years ago the United States didn't even exist and the English owned about 1/4th of the World . Also add, no electricity, all calculations done by hand, etc. A lot can change in 300 years.

	21-06-2002 23:19									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, I don't watch Star Trek . I just think with the advancements in communication and travel that the nation-state is soon to be obsolete (within 200 years). A global community is arising and it bound to get closer and closer as the years pass. I wouldn't be suprised to see by 2300 a United States of Earth.

Well hell, I better get with the program if we are to be united by 2300.


The only way humanity will be united is if there is an outside threat. Barring that, there will always be those that choose a different way. Neither you or me or anyone else has a right to decided how others should choose to operate. It all sounds very nice. It would be a great coup for the world to throw off our differences. But we live in the here and now.

Simply put, we should not impose our ways on others nor should we tolerate those that seek to do that to us.

	21-06-2002 23:21									#149
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In order to unify the world, there has to be a general concensus on basic values (individual freedom vs. security/stability, system of government, economic freedom versus equality, etc.). We're nowhere near that yet.

A lot can change in 300 yrs. Of course. Hell, in 300 years we may have nuked ourselves out of existence. But I think the "United Federation of Earth" or whatever will take more than 300yrs. So say I, Arrian, the great armchair prophet

-Arrian

	21-06-2002 23:21									#150
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quote: the nation-state is soon to be obsolete

It's been obsolete for decades. But these things have 'momentum'.