22-06-2002 05:30									#211
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I see no Hypocracy i just see a bunch of people that can't read & propaganda

The article its self is misleading, the first sentance says it no one can be handed over to the ICC. The next sentance says that no one can be handed over the the ICC without written consent from the country to which the person belongs to.

Then latter it says France and Britain have urged the United States to invoke a provision from the ICC treaty that allows the United States to secure immunity for its troops through bilateral agreements with countries that host U.S. forces.

So according to Chris the EU is Hypocratic because its excerising a provision of the ICC treaty?

	22-06-2002 05:35									#212
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quote: Originally posted by markusf So according to Chris the EU is Hypocratic because its excerising a provision of the ICC treaty?

The EU is hypocritical becuase it is critical of the US for seeking an immunity for its forces at the sametime it was doing the same thing.

	22-06-2002 05:42									#213
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The US was seeking immunity across the board, for all peacekeeping missions. The EU used a provision of the ICC to ask for an exemption on a specific mission.

Those two positions are not incompatible. However, if some of the posters here support their governments' actions in this matter while at the same time maintaining their arguments for US ratification then they would be acting inconsistently.

	22-06-2002 05:43									#214
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc The EU is hypocritical becuase it is critical of the US for seeking an immunity for its forces at the sametime it was doing the same thing.

uhm blanket immunity is not the same as negociated immunity for one instance.

This is nothing more then a power struggle, the US doesn't want its dirty laundry aired in public, and it wants control of the testimony etc etc etc. Which it could achieve in a CLOSED court martial in the US.

	22-06-2002 05:47									#215
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The US was seeking immunity across the board, for all peacekeeping missions. The EU used a provision of the ICC to ask for an exemption on a specific mission. Those two positions are not incompatible. However, if some of the posters here support their governments' actions in this matter while at the same time maintaining their arguments for US ratification then they would be acting inconsistently.

Uhm so you really think if the US and EU invaded iraq that iraq would sign a treaty saying no we don't have any right to bring charges against troops who commit war crimes. The whole purpose of the court is for war crimes etc not peace keeping mission screw ups.

	22-06-2002 05:49									#216
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The EU used a provision of the ICC to ask for an exemption on a specific mission.

I'd still like to know which provision of the Rome Statute allows for this. I missed it in my first skimming of the treaty.

	22-06-2002 05:53									#217
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quote: Originally posted by markusf uhm blanket immunity is not the same as negociated immunity for one instance.

The desire to aquire immunity from ICC prosecution on the part of the EU justifies the US stance, markusf.

	22-06-2002 06:06									#218
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'd still like to know which provision of the Rome Statute allows for this. I missed it in my first skimming of the treaty.

Apparently the one that the article refers to when it says:

quote: France and Britain have urged the United States to invoke a provision from the ICC treaty that allows the United States to secure immunity for its troops through bilateral agreements with countries that host U.S. forces

	22-06-2002 06:08									#219
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Apparently the one that the article refers to when it says:

I have a copy of the Rome Statute sitting on my comp. Could you be a little more specific than the article?

	22-06-2002 06:13									#220
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No, because I've never read the Rome Statute. I'm assuming that the reporter has actually done his job well enough to not get such a basic fact wrong...

	22-06-2002 06:14									#221
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And why have you followed AH's tradition of using the shades smilie above each and every one of your posts?

	22-06-2002 07:35									#222
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quote: What really bothers me, Imran, is guys like Carter going to Cuba and apologizing for the US not having an universal public health care system as does Cuba. Universal health care is not a core American value.

Um... what does it matter if or not universal health care is a core American value or not? Carter apologized for us nothing having universal public health care, because he believes it is a basic human right. No one cares if it is a core American value.

quote: We "share" a lot of values, such as the right of free speech, with others in the world, particularly with the Europeans. If what Imran means by advocating American values reduces only to advocating values broadly shared by others, then why should we bother? Since the Europeans broadly share these values, let them take the lead in spreading these values to places in the world that do not have them today.

Why should we bother?!! Are you serious? By making countries more like the US in terms of democratic governance, free markets, free speech, etc, we make them more able to purchase things from American companies. They share our likes and dislikes and this helps America when things like the War on Terror happens, because those countries that share our values will not harbor terrorists. The countries that share our values will also do a lot of trade with us and WANT McDonald's and Walmart to come in.

It helps us immensely, and we've been doing it since WW2 with SUPER success.

	22-06-2002 07:51									#223
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And why have you followed AH's tradition of using the shades smilie above each and every one of your posts?

Good redirect, son. Now, we just need to lure you into materials research...

	22-06-2002 22:49									#224
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The US was seeking immunity across the board, for all peacekeeping missions. The EU used a provision of the ICC to ask for an exemption on a specific mission. Those two positions are not incompatible. However, if some of the posters here support their governments' actions in this matter while at the same time maintaining their arguments for US ratification then they would be acting inconsistently.

hi ,

, what about a mission where "denialabilty" is a big issue , ....

what if the US goes lets say after sadam , and in the process kill the person who was in his bed at the same time , should the people who have killed sadam , then be brought to the ICC , .....

or what if a submarine officer fires a cruise missile , and the missile hits a WMD plant , but in the process a civilian guard , (who knows nothing of the WMD plant) gets the farm , .....

how far do you go with supporting your government , ....

in europe the nations are hypocritcal , but what about the rest of the world , ...

shall we go , as people , go after the submarine officer from an other nation , .....

or shall we do it as long as he or she is not from the US , ....

have a nice day

	22-06-2002 23:36									#225
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Panag, You post illustrates why so many ratifiers are making it clear that if the target was a legitimate military target, any amout of "collateral damage" is acceptable. This kind of exception would seem to permit the targeting of Dresden. (One of the earlier posters had pointed out that the Germans had moved a lot of war industry into Dresden to "protect" it against bombing because, they thought incorrectly, the Allies would never bomb Dresden.)

Last edited by Ned on 22-06-2002 at 23:51

	22-06-2002 23:46									#226
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Hiding behind the idea that the cities where industrial targets is just another way of trying to escape guilt behind terms like "collateral damage". Civilians are targets in a total war. If that justifies it is a moral issue. I'm a sceptic.

	22-06-2002 23:50									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Panag, You post illustrates why so many ratifiers are making it clear that if the target was a legitimate military target, any amout of "collateral damage" is acceptable. This kind of exception would seem to permit the target of Dresden. (One of the earlier posters had pointed out that the Germans had moved a lot of war industry into Dresden to "protect" it against bombing because, they thought incorrectly, the Allies would never bomb Dresden.

hi ,

here we go again , same old stuff , same old s...
marching down the avenue , ....

how does one define a military target , ....

a powerplant that gives electricity to a WMD plant , is it a valid target , ......even when it gives 95 % of its output to a town , ....

a plant where antibiotics are made , but that can be switched in no time for military use , ...
is that a valid target , ....

a plant where washing powder is made , but use under a national emergency as a gunpowder plant , ....


when you harbor a stay behind military unit in your house , even under pressure , is that a valid target , ....

what is a valid military target , ....

ones again , people shall judge other people , yet the judges shall not be people with military background's , ...

so they can not understand that when a unit is occupied in CQC or FIBUA , and the leader of that unit calls for artillery support , and because of that call , some shells fly over , and a civilian is killed , ...

have a nice day

	22-06-2002 23:59									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Hiding behind the idea that the cities where industrial targets is just another way of trying to escape guilt behind terms like "collateral damage". Civilians are targets in a total war. If that justifies it is a moral issue. I'm a sceptic.

I don't see how anyone can argue that. declassified documents show that the british weren't making a dent in germanys industrial production at the start of ww2 so they switched to carpet bombing of cities.

Several german bombs went off target in london and hit residential areas.. The british saw the panic it caused and then ordered the carpet bombing of cities as the only other alternitive was to give up all together. The USA complained but went along with the idea.

	23-06-2002 00:04									#229
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Yeah, I read that one of the original ideas when they discovered that there was no chance in hell they could actually hit small targets they started to argue that they could break the spirit of the german workers by destroying their homes.

Of cource they couldn't admit that they didn't have a important role to play in the war (institutions always wants to maximise their budget).

It back-fired as the destruction of their homes did the opposite. Also the destruction of downtown areas meant that a lot of other jobs disappeared and they had to work for the war-machine. Germany was very late in turning their economy for total war.

	23-06-2002 00:05									#230
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , here we go again , same old stuff , same old s... marching down the avenue , .... how does one define a military target , .... a powerplant that gives electricity to a WMD plant , is it a valid target , ......even when it gives 95 % of its output to a town , .... a plant where antibiotics are made , but that can be switched in no time for military use , ... is that a valid target , .... a plant where washing powder is made , but use under a national emergency as a gunpowder plant , .... when you harbor a stay behind military unit in your house , even under pressure , is that a valid target , .... what is a valid military target , .... ones again , people shall judge other people , yet the judges shall not be people with military background's , ... so they can not understand that when a unit is occupied in CQC or FIBUA , and the leader of that unit calls for artillery support , and because of that call , some shells fly over , and a civilian is killed , ... have a nice day

Oh come on, you know damn well the only people who would be called before a court like that, are people who could be charged in a court martial, or murder trail and found quilty. IF someone lines up 20 people and shoots them, chances are they would be brought before the court. There would be so much politics involved it would be unlikely anyone could be brought before the court unless they did something really bad, and they knew what they where doing was really bad.

	23-06-2002 00:08									#231
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good troll chris

quote: "may not be surrendered to, or otherwise transferred to, the custody of an international tribunal or any other entity or state without the express consent of the contributing nation."

so the afganistan goverment agreed not to hand over any british soldiers if they actually get them in the first place

nothing to do with whether these soldiers can be put in trial in the international court....

	23-06-2002 00:10									#232
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quote: Originally posted by markusf Oh come on, you know damn well the only people who would be called before a court like that, are people who could be charged in a court martial, or murder trail and found quilty. IF someone lines up 20 people and shoots them, chances are they would be brought before the court. There would be so much politics involved it would be unlikely anyone could be brought before the court unless they did something really bad, and they knew what they where doing was really bad.

hi ,

people have been brought to a court for less then the killing of a human , .... "damage to a house , estimated damage 6000 USD" , pilot of F-18 , ...

sentenced to 4 years in Ft leavenworth , ......

he dropped a 500 pound bomb on a house in the balkans , ....

so , this is a rare case , but still , where do you draw the line , ......

when you fire a modern day rifle , the bullet can go miles , .. , so you aim at a rooftop , and the bullet fly's over , and hits a house , or injures a person , without that the shooter wants it , ...

then what , ...

have a nice day

	23-06-2002 00:13									#233
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So that's the real reason no one dares to attack the US, they would get sued their asses off.

	23-06-2002 00:18									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin So that's the real reason no one dares to attack the US, they would get sued their asses off.

hi ,

, case of a US soldier on station in Paris , he gets in a fight , with some antiglobalist's , so he started a lawsuit , so did the US army , against the Frech state , reason ; they could not guarantee his safety , .....


2 years later , out of court settlement of nearly 400.000 USD , ....

that really put's the zap on it , ......



have a nice day

	24-06-2002 13:50									#235
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Ned, you've touring around with this constiturional jingoism for ages now:

"What makes America unique, however, is our constitution. There are very few countries in the world that are even remotely structured like the United States...."

So tell me. What is so unique about the US constitution ? How does it compare to the Grundgesetz, Austrian Bundesverfassung, EU primary law ? Put up or shut up. Or start a thread on it.

	24-06-2002 14:14									#236
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quote: Originally posted by panag , case of a US soldier on station in Paris , he gets in a fight , with some antiglobalist's , so he started a lawsuit , so did the US army , against the Frech state , reason ; they could not guarantee his safety , .....

A US soldier in Paris ? What was going a US soldier in Paris ?
An american tourist okay ! But what was doing an american soldier in Paris ?

	24-06-2002 15:00									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Roland So tell me. What is so unique about the US constitution ? How does it compare to the Grundgesetz, Austrian Bundesverfassung, EU primary law ? Put up or shut up. Or start a thread on it.

It's easier to pronounce.

	24-06-2002 15:03									#238
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"It's easier to pronounce."

Try "Bundes-Verfassungsgesetz von 1920 mit dem die Republik Österreich als Bundesstaat eingerichtet wird" and "Staatsgrundgesetz über die allgemeinen Rechte der Staatsbürger". And don't choke.

	24-06-2002 15:06									#239
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Say it...I doubt I could read it!

I can also say I haven't a clue on how the US constitution is different or the same from the unpronoucable stuff you mentioned.

It would be a guess, but I would think they are more similar then different.