26-06-2002 02:53									#1
	Mohammed in Hell Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Recently in Italy there has been a controversy over a 15th century Fresco depicting the Islamic prophet Mohammed in Hell being devoured by demons- the painting is in a Catholic church. Italian muslims have campaigned vigorously to remove this, and so far have unsucsessfully appealed to the Vatican to get rid of the painting.

I can see two sides to this one- one on hand it is deeply offensive to a large group of people and in this age that already has too much religious strife it might not be good to have such paintings around. OTOH, it is art, and moreover it is a historical artifact. And just because we might not like this doesn't mean it's bad art or that others won't like it?

So, should the Italian muslims get their way and the painting be removed?

	26-06-2002 02:57									#2
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ROFLMAO, well I can say I think he is here actually... so they should keep the painting.

	26-06-2002 02:57									#3
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I am an atheist and I say BANANA. Hehehe... now seriously I say I am not sure....

	26-06-2002 02:58									#4
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It should be removed, and possibly relocated into a museum, and exhibited with other pagan artifacts.

	26-06-2002 02:58									#5
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Atheist banana. It's all lunacy to me.

	26-06-2002 03:04									#6
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I just realize I selected the wrong choice in the poll.... oh well... I guess it reflect my ambivalent nature.

	26-06-2002 03:05									#7
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Since It's in a church I don't think it's a good enough reason as it's hardly something they see every day. I don't like christianity or any religion and you don't see me going around and advocating the removal of religious symbols from churches and mosques. not that anyone would listen to me, as usual.

	26-06-2002 03:10									#8
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I'm atheist and say they shall not remove it. Maybe it's because I'm historian.

They could possibly put a plate beneath the fresco, saying that the painting represents historical, medieval thinking and not that of today's people.

But beside that: What's so wrong about it? I mean, we all know that most Christians have Mohammed in hell, it's almost inherent in Christianity...

	26-06-2002 03:11									#9
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Offcourse the picture should stay right where it is.

The muslims have had there fun of detruction of other religions icons in Afghanistan lately, I say they should stay quiet for another millinium or so.

(I just hope the muslim world is just going through this stage of destruction of statues and the like, so they will arrive eventually at the Age of Enlightment..)

	26-06-2002 03:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by germanos Offcourse the picture should stay right where it is. The muslims have had there fun of detruction of other religions icons in Afghanistan lately, I say they should stay quiet for another millinium or so. (I just hope the muslim world is just going through this stage of destruction of statues and the like, so they will arrive eventually at the Age of Enlightment..)

This reminds me of a nice theory concerning religions...

This theory sasy that every religion, like the average teenager, when becoming 14(centuries) old enters it's age of death and destruction.

The Jews were busy with killing each other instead of fighting an enemy, thus losing more than a million men in the war against Rome. For the Christianity, there were the crusades. And now, it's the turn of the Islam, and we're witnessing only the beginning.

	26-06-2002 03:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Eli This reminds me of a nice theory concerning religions... This theory sasy that every religion, like the average teenager, when becoming 14(centuries) old enters it's age of death and destruction. The Jews were busy with killing each other instead of fighting an enemy, thus losing more than a million men in the war against Rome. For the Christianity, there were the crusades. And now, it's the turn of the Islam, and we're witnessing only the beginning.

hey...... that does sorta make sense....!

	26-06-2002 03:27									#12
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Germanos, your sig says :

quote: Eli for President !

	26-06-2002 03:30									#13
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but to the previous point: perhaps 12-1400 years is enough time for a religion to spread to a few places, experience some glory and power, decline, and then slide away into the former-superpower-getting-very-bitter stage.

Does that mean that by 3300 we'll be seeing Scientologist terrorist organizations?

	26-06-2002 03:31									#14
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haven't seen it


but any picture with demons in it must be cool

	26-06-2002 03:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Eli This reminds me of a nice theory concerning religions... This theory sasy that every religion, like the average teenager, when becoming 14(centuries) old enters it's age of death and destruction. The Jews were busy with killing each other instead of fighting an enemy, thus losing more than a million men in the war against Rome. For the Christianity, there were the crusades. And now, it's the turn of the Islam, and we're witnessing only the beginning.

A simple thought about when the First Crusade occured shows that just a bit off.

	26-06-2002 03:36									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred A simple thought about when the First Crusade occured shows that just a bit off.

We can always say that the true insanity of Christendom started with the Age of Discovery and Reformation.

	26-06-2002 03:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Germanos, your sig says : quote: Eli for President !

Oops..Not anymore. It was in response to the beautifull map of the 12 tribes... Today is actually the first day it is actually there. (well, was..)

	26-06-2002 04:00									#18
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The painting is hardly consistent with the Pope's outreach to Islam.

Regardless, Mohammed did marry a 9-year old girl and waged aggressive war to spread the faith. The former act seems an offense against any God's teachings and by itself should condemn the man. The latter action is consistent with the conquests of Cyrus to spread Zoroastrianism, and with Charlemagne's conquest of the Saxons, the Crusades and the Spanish conquest of the new world to spread Christianity. Either all are wrong or none are wrong.

I personally think the Pope is right. It is time to seek common ground.

Last edited by Ned on 26-06-2002 at 06:33

	26-06-2002 04:07									#19
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If the picture isn't on state property I don't believe that they have a legitimate complaint. There are after all passages in the Koran stating exactly where the profit thought that non-muslims belonged. For that matter it would not surprise me to have a picture depicting christians suffering the punishment of the damned somewhere in all of Islam.

	26-06-2002 04:13									#20
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Leave it. Bear in mind it was made by narrow-minded oppressive religious leaders who treated the common folk like cattle, and leave it.

	26-06-2002 04:32									#21
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two atheists saying yes so far. doesn´t make much sense for me.

I am agnostic and say no.

	26-06-2002 04:34									#22
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Why don't they draw their own picture and put the Pope in hell. Seems like a simple solution -- plus they can put in a few more demons and flames if they want...

	26-06-2002 04:37									#23
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quote: The former act seems an offense against any God's teachings

Seeing that he didn't have sex with her what does it matter?

	26-06-2002 04:40									#24
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quote: They could possibly put a plate beneath the fresco, saying that the painting represents historical, medieval thinking and not that of today's people.

Ah, good to know that the bits about people who didn't follow jesus all getting cast into lakes of fire and whatnot didn't make it into the new edition, I always thought they broke up the narrative...

	26-06-2002 04:41									#25
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Hm... I hope I won't forget to remind some of the people here of this thread when there is another outburst here when someone shows another painting in the near future of the Holy Virgin made of african elephant poop...

	26-06-2002 04:46									#26
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I think that outburst Hueij was mostly concerned about it being a government sponsored (or subsidized) event.

	26-06-2002 04:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I think that outburst Hueij was mostly concerned about it being a government sponsored (or subsidized) event.

Ja, you are right. Art should only be subsidised when it shocks no one, God forbid. Norman Rockwell springs to mind...

	26-06-2002 04:51									#28
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No, art shouldn't be subsidised at all .

	26-06-2002 04:53									#29
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I think that people should buy their own paint. After all, how much money did it cost to buy a pound of dung and a plastic statue of the virgin Mary?

	26-06-2002 04:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln I think that people should buy their own paint. After all, how much money did it cost to buy a pound of dung and a plastic statue of the virgin Mary?

I'm not going to argue this. People said, when they saw Guernica, that it looked like something their little nephew could have made...

It's 2am over here, so goodnight y'all