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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
The key phrase was "regular basis".
Absolute nonsense.
I'm not saying we should rewrite history, I'm saying that the stuff we keep saying NOW, like the pledge, doesn't need to contain "under God". It was added in the 1950s and there wasn't a huge uproar, but the second someone mentions taking it out, the Christians from around the nation unite to keep it in. It's ridiculous.
It's not asking to outlaw history, it's saying remove useless words that alienate people who aren't from the same monotheistic background.
Simple, da?
I believe you're talking about the Catholic Schools? But the Catholic School District is completely optional. Here we have the Public Schools (no religion at all), and the Catholic Schools (religion).
Very moot point. BTW, I'm all for reforming Canada's government so don't get me started on that.  |
(1) Why does 'regularity" matter? If the teacher had required the little girl to get down on her knees and pray for her eternal soul even once would have been enough I'm certain.
(2) By now the 1950s is history.
(3) Canada actually pays the Catholic church to perform a governmental service, and it does so with predjudice against schools run by other churches which do not receive such funding.
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Guynemer
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Oh, and re: being ostracized, let me tell you a story.
One day, in high school (a public school, mind you), we were all called down to an assembly; none of us really knew ahead of time what was going on, it hadn't been previously announced or anything. So we all sit down, and programs are passed around. Apparently, some group from Eastern Michigan University (IIRC) were going to sing. No big whoop. But then I looked at the songs in the program--hymns, spirituals, various Christian tunes of all sorts.
So I turned to look at my girlfriend at the time--the only Jew in a school numbering over 1,500 students. We just got up and left, went to the library. No one bugged us or anything. But keep this in mind--we were 17 years old, we were two of the top students in school, and we were well known to most of the faculty via academics and extracirricular activities. Do you think some of the Muslim students, or the Wiccan students, or the Hindu students, or the Buddhist students, or the Jain students, or my fellow atheist students, would have felt as comfortable getting up and leaving? What if they were 7 instead of 17?
A couple months later, as part of my law project on religion in schools, I had the opportunity to ask the principal about that assembly. He said that it was allowable to have them sing Christian songs to the entire school, because "it was a showcase of their singing ability, not of the songs themselves."
Bottom line: public school teachers and government employees. When they lead their students in the Pledge and say "under God," that invalidates a huge number of religious beliefs that we have in this country. This is diametrically opposed to what our country supposedly stands for, and it SHOULD END.
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Guynemer
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It is state establishment of religion--you bet your ass it's unconstitutional to have government employees lead children in reciting it!
And, simply from a practical standpoint, how likely to do think it is that this could EVER be changed through the legislature in this ****ing country, where (according to Time) over half the population thinks that Revelations will come true? Any politican who stood up for what is right in this issue would have his or her ass bounced out of Washington so fast it would make your head spin. Do you really think 99 Senators think "under God" belongs in the Pledge? HELL no. I'd bet you that, deep down inside, half or more of them knows that it doesn't belong there. But if they said that, they wouldn't get reelected.
If we can't count on our elected officials to do what is right, all he have left is the courts.
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Out of interest, would you have been offended if thier singing program had included 'God Bless America,' 'America The Beautiful,' & 'Star Spangled Banner' instead of the Christian program? |
Frankly, all the "God Bless America" tripe that inundated us post-9/11 made me ill. And I wasn't aware of any religious references in the "Star Spangled Banner", unless there are some in the other verses that rarely get sung.
Would I have been offended by the 'Star Spangled Banner'? No. Just a little annoyed--sometimes, I think that it is sung so much that it loses all meaning. (Do we really need to sing it before sporting events, honestly? According to tradition, you aren't even supposed to applaud afterwards, but everyone does it.)
But that is substantially different than a religious program, or "God Bless America" and "America the Beautiful".
(Apropos of nothing, what is the grammatical rule for things in quotation marks (like titles) at the ends of sentences? Sometimes I see the period inside the quotation mark, sometimes outside... it's all very confusing.)
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
It has been ruled unconstitutional, I believe, to display the Ten Commandments in public schools, has it not? Given that, how would you say the mentioning of God in the Pledge isn't a similar violation? |
Because the Pledge isn't related to a specific religion. No matter what people say monotheism isn't a religion, it is simply a type of religion. There is nothing about establishment of types of religion in there.
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You honestly believe that sort of hair-splitting and trick of semantics makes this constitutional?
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Oh, and re: being ostracized, let me tell you a story.
One day, in high school (a public school, mind you), we were all called down to an assembly; none of us really knew ahead of time what was going on, it hadn't been previously announced or anything. So we all sit down, and programs are passed around. Apparently, some group from Eastern Michigan University (IIRC) were going to sing. No big whoop. But then I looked at the songs in the program--hymns, spirituals, various Christian tunes of all sorts.
So I turned to look at my girlfriend at the time--the only Jew in a school numbering over 1,500 students. We just got up and left, went to the library. No one bugged us or anything. But keep this in mind--we were 17 years old, we were two of the top students in school, and we were well known to most of the faculty via academics and extracirricular activities. Do you think some of the Muslim students, or the Wiccan students, or the Hindu students, or the Buddhist students, or the Jain students, or my fellow atheist students, would have felt as comfortable getting up and leaving? What if they were 7 instead of 17?
A couple months later, as part of my law project on religion in schools, I had the opportunity to ask the principal about that assembly. He said that it was allowable to have them sing Christian songs to the entire school, because "it was a showcase of their singing ability, not of the songs themselves."
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Would you have felt the same if it had been The Haarlem Choir singing spirituals?
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Guynemer
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Yes. I thought I made that clear.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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Dino... I think it is in the 4th stanza:
quote:
Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?
On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave! |
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Yes. I thought I made that clear. |
Yet another white man trying to repress black culture.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Ahem... and my point was, how often do you hear the fourth stanza being sung?
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Quite often. Around here when it is sung at functions, games, etc. it is usually sung in its entireity.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I can safely say I've never, ever heard anything other than the first stanza of the anthem being sung. I didn't even know their were 4 stanzas. |
I've seen those New York maps of the United States. You're barely aware of the rest of the country.
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27-06-2002 19:50
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