27-06-2002 20:04									#61
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Thats not what that post says.

The US may have applied pressure to effect change, that doesnt mean that

quote: the USA dictated the end of major monarchies around the world. This ment england was forced to give up India.

That comment, and the one that followed it are absurd. Perhaps you havent noticed, but Britain still retains a number of small colonies worldwide one of which (containing more sheep than people) it sailed a force 10000 miles to defend.

	27-06-2002 20:16									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Germany is now on the verge of exonerating itself of the heinous acts committed by its citizens which to me is only one step away from saying that if they had to do it all over they wouldn't have changed a thing (except for the loosing part). Frankly I sleep better at night knowing that the US still maintains an armed force in Germany. I think we all should be grateful for that.

While I agree with most of your points, this is a rather gross exaggeration of German sentiment. Germany, perhaps moreso than any other Western country with a past history of gross inhumanity, has done much to face up to its crimes and deal with the problems that created the Holocaust. The sense of national regret over it far exceeds anything you'll find in the United States over slavery or treatment of the Native Americans.

U.S. troops remain in Germany because Germany wants the bases there. If it didn't, you can bet the U.S. would have to leave.

	27-06-2002 20:18									#63
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Thats not what that post says. The US may have applied pressure to effect change, that doesnt mean that That comment, and the one that followed it are absurd. Perhaps you havent noticed, but Britain still retains a number of small colonies worldwide one of which (containing more sheep than people) it sailed a force 10000 miles to defend.

The Falkland Islands are not an occupied colony in the same sense as India or Indochina. The Falklands is populated entirely by British people, it never had a native people. The people who live there desire British citizenship. They are the only people whose opinion really matters with regards to the status of the islands.

	27-06-2002 20:26									#64
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There's no such news on our news channels, therefore that court decision never happened.

	27-06-2002 20:30									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The Falkland Islands are not an occupied colony in the same sense as India or Indochina. The Falklands is populated entirely by British people, it never had a native people. The people who live there desire British citizenship. They are the only people whose opinion really matters with regards to the status of the islands.

I suppose thats true, but I was merely using it as an example of the lengths to which Britain would go to protect its colonies/holdings if it deemed it important or necessary.

	27-06-2002 20:33									#66
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Ecth:

The decision hasn't happened yet, the trial is ongoing. Ned's title of the thread was misleading.

	27-06-2002 20:33									#67
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Partisans are not protected by the Genava conventions.

They didn't execute partisans, they executed Italian soldiers. Shortly after the allies landed in Italy the government of Italy deposed Mussolini. The new government sued for peace with the allies. Germany occupied Italy and placed many Italian soldiers in prison camps. It was these legitimate soldiers that Germany executed. The Nazis maintained that the ouster of Mussolini was illegal and that the soldiers who remained loyal to the (new) government were therefore rebels who had no more status than partisans.

Mussolini's ouster was not illegal, because the Fascist Council (who actually accomplished his removal ) employed powers given to it by the very same fascist goverment that Hitler recognized as legal.

For a German court to take it upon itself to decide such an issue, i.e., the legality of the goverment that followed Mussolini, should be viewed by every EU nation as an affront to everything their people bled for in that war.

Does anyone know if other EU goverments have made public statements about this decision?

	27-06-2002 20:37									#68
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As a matter of fact, Wehrmacht soldiers are said to not only have executed prisoners of war (soldiers) but also civilians in reprisal "attack" or executions. That's undeniable, so any raising of the Geneva convention not counting for partisans point is futile. And I agree, from a moral point of view, partisan warfare as such is mostly righteous. Now whether their practises are always morally right (Russian partisans are said to have slaughtered German soldiers while they were in rail wagons, as an example, and I personally doubt that that is made up), is another question.

	27-06-2002 20:43									#69
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My $.02:

"Partisan" or "guerilla" attacks against occupying soldiers are ok in my book. The occupier, of course, can fight back.

Killing PoW's or civilians in reprisal attacks, however, is well beyond the Pale. Terrible ruling by this German court. Can/will it be appealed? If so, I imagine it stands a good chance of being reversed.

quote: The Falkland Islands are not an occupied colony in the same sense as India or Indochina. The Falklands is populated entirely by British people, it never had a native people. The people who live there desire British citizenship. They are the only people whose opinion really matters with regards to the status of the islands.

Correct. But, just for shits and giggles, allow me to quote Eddie Izzard:

"England, what's that behind your back?"
"It's India and a number of other countries"
"Come on, we've had a bloody war, give 'em back"
"Oh, all right. There's that one there and that one there... oh, no, not the Falklands Islands. We need the Falklands Islands... for strategic sheep purposes."

-Arrian

	27-06-2002 20:47									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion As a matter of fact, Wehrmacht soldiers are said to not only have executed prisoners of war (soldiers) but also civilians in reprisal "attack" or executions. That's undeniable, so any raising of the Geneva convention not counting for partisans point is futile. And I agree, from a moral point of view, partisan warfare as such is mostly righteous. Now whether their practises are always morally right (Russian partisans are said to have slaughtered German soldiers while they were in rail wagons, as an example, and I personally doubt that that is made up), is another question.

IIRC firing on troop transport, trains, and trucks is not generally considered unethical. Soldiers in transport are considered combatants. For that matter there really is no such thing as being "off duty" in a war zone.

From the Nazis standpoint the troops in Italy were there at the behest of the legal government ( Mussolini ), and even uniformed Italian soldiers were rebel/ partisans. From the Italian point of view the Germans were invading troops in a country which had not capitulated and therefore was a war zone.

	27-06-2002 20:51									#71
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Dr. S: There hasn't yet been a ruling. This is premature.

	27-06-2002 20:52									#72
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To me, shooting at a soldier who can't defend himself is always unethical. You can always take him as POW.

	27-06-2002 20:59									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Dr. S: There hasn't yet been a ruling. This is premature.

Hmmmm.....I guess I misunderstood the meaing of the phrase "the court upheld the argument...."

	27-06-2002 21:05									#74
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Ah...was referring to a verdict as to his guilt in the matter, so I see.

	27-06-2002 21:10									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion To me, shooting at a soldier who can't defend himself is always unethical. You can always take him as POW.

If that's true then it would be unethical for coastal troops to shoot at landing ships, for fighter pilots to shoot at bombers which have dropped their loads, for infantry to fire on artillery troops once they've managed to crawl inside the guns' minimum range, for infantry to fire on an officer leading troops with (only) sword in hand. Using artillery beyond the range of the opposing forces guns would also be illegal.

A machine gun crew could have one guy stand up with his arms in the air and then wait for his would be captors to walk into range.

As Allied forces moved into Germany they would have troops armed with Panzerfaust play dead along the roadside. As tanks approached they'd pop up, fire their rocket at the tank, then throw up their hands. After a few weeks of this Eisenhower issued an order allowing allied soldiers to shoot these ambushers on the principle that they were violating the principles of war.

	27-06-2002 21:12									#76
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Common sense, my friend, common sense.

There's a difference between troops in landing boats and troops in trains.

	27-06-2002 21:15									#77
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A group of British soldiers was storming some hilltop German machine gun post in Northern Italy (I think), and the Germans were decimating them with machine gun fire. Finally, through sheer numbers, they got to the top of the ridge. The Germans all threw up their hands and surrendered. The Brits said, "Too late, mates," and shot them all.

	27-06-2002 21:28									#78
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The Battle of Normandy was won on the roads and rails of France. Allied planes destroyed most of the equipment bound for the front lines and decimated the troops on the march. (You guys invented this type of attack you know.) If allied planes had not been able to prevent men and eqipment from reaching Normandy you'd be speaking German right now!

Troop trains are usually protected by guns and artillery, they're not naked.

In your opinion is it permissable to blow up the tracks? Isn't that as likely to be as fatal as shooting the men on the train? If you just shoot at the cars at least the men have a chance for the train to roll out of range. If it is not permissable to destroy the train, then you're effectively saying that interdiction of supplies and replacements is not a legitimate means of waging war.

	27-06-2002 21:32									#79
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you can always storm the train

	27-06-2002 21:32									#80
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tough example, Boreus

	27-06-2002 21:34									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion you can always storm the train

You can run 30 to 60 miles/hour?
I mean, you can run 45 to 96 Kilometers/hour?

	27-06-2002 21:35									#82
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set a bomb on the track

and when the train has come to a halt: storm it. offer imprisonment. if they kindly say no, move bac. they will let you. then have a fight.

oh wait, the last part was so 18th century

Boris, that example is really... odd....

	27-06-2002 21:41									#83
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it made me think

	27-06-2002 21:42									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion set a bomb on the track and when the train has come to a halt: storm it. offer imprisonment. if they kindly say no, move bac. they will let you. then have a fight. oh wait, the last part was so 18th century Boris, that example is really... odd....

Following your example one should not fire on a column of marching soldiers either. One should stand up and shout a request for their surrender first.

If the train wrecks at full speed most of the troops on it will be killed anyway.

Like I said, troop trains are usually armed anyway. All it takes is a flat car with a machine gun or two.

	27-06-2002 21:44									#85
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I think it's a tough one, Ecthy. On the one hand, the Germans were doing their duty, defending a hill they were ordered to defend.

However, if you're a Brit and you watch your buddies get mowed down in droves, fight tooth-and-nail to take the hill, and then the Germans just throw up their hands and surrender...well, what are you going to do? The Germans knew their position was hopeless. They had plenty of opportunities to surrender before the Brits reached the top.

It's just another example of why war really, really sucks.

	27-06-2002 21:46									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think it's a tough one, Ecthy. On the one hand, the Germans were doing their duty, defending a hill they were ordered to defend.

I think that there is a "hors de combat" clause in the Geneva Convention that excuses such actions.

	27-06-2002 22:46									#87
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This, of course, is a terrible ruling. I agree with Che on this, attacks on civilians wrong, atatcks on occupying forces OK. The way for the occupying forces should be the same: attacks on civilian, or acts of communal punishment against the occupied population wrong, trying to arrest those that carried out the acts against the occupying forces fine. Since hose killed were already prisoners, thus non-combatants, what happened was murder. Hopefully a higger court will overturn this hiddeous ruling.

	27-06-2002 22:51									#88
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"The Battle of Normandy was won on the roads and rails of France. Allied planes destroyed most of the equipment bound for the front lines and decimated the troops on the march"

My grandfather told me this, he was a german soldier well behind the beach. The Resistance cut the lines of communication to HQ so well that his unit sent couriers on kubelwagons on 100 miles trips. Thats how well the resistance cut the lines.

	27-06-2002 23:40									#89
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Doctor Strangelove, Desert Storm turned into a fiasco because our Apache helicopters butchered fleeing columns of Iraqi troops. This action was witnessed by the entire world on TV. It's so sickened Powell and others that they called a halt prematurely and allowed the Republican guard to escape.

It may be one thing to shoot the locomotives of a troop train. It is quite another to massacre every soldier on a train. We saw one example of that in the movie Lawrence of Arabia. You could see the horror in Lawrence eyes and expression.

When an assault is made by partisans on a convoy of troops, there is no possibility of taking prisoners. Either the partisans wipe out the troops in the convoy, or they retreat. I think the new ICC would tell them that they must retreat.

But back to Desert Storm. I would think that butchering a column of fleeing troops must be and should be illegal even by uniformed troops, but more so by partisans.

Last edited by Ned on 28-06-2002 at 00:40

	27-06-2002 23:44									#90
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I don't think the codes for wht is and isn't allowed should be that complex:

Troops moving towards the battlefield to fight, fair game, troops that have surrendered or are fleeing, not fair game. If you are running away, that makes it seem to me that you are no longer a combatant.