28-06-2002 06:30									#151
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if a country is invaded the people have every right to free it.

if the occupying army does "reprisals" on top pf that, they are twice to be executed when the war is over.

i'm surprised nazis are still alive actually.

	28-06-2002 06:49									#152
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 if a country is invaded the people have every right to free it. if the occupying army does "reprisals" on top pf that, they are twice to be executed when the war is over. i'm surprised nazis are still alive actually.

I understand your feelings on the subject - I'm just pointing out the legal situation, which is the subject of this thread.

Most nazi war criminals actually escaped and went back to Germany to lead normal lives. There was a rather chilling study done of Hamburg Police. Police were recruited into Police Battalions during the war. These units were responsible for many of the most infamous war crimes. After the war, most of the police soldiers from Hamburg just went back to their police jobs and led normal lives.

They studied their attitudes. They did a lot of Jew murders and had the right not to participate. But none exercised that right - they didn't want to be seen as weak or to let down their comrades.

	28-06-2002 06:50									#153
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Paiktis, Now that the Israeli's know where Brunner is, they may send in the boys to get him.

	28-06-2002 07:00									#154
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Ned, this info has been known and forwarded to all some time now. It is not recent.

However noone has done anything as far as I know.

reality check The Israelis can't just go barging into Syria to get him.

The whole international community is to be blamed for not getting this last scumbag, somehow, as far as I am concerned.

	28-06-2002 07:13									#155
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And I doubt the Israelis want him more than we do.

Don't forget that Jews were not the only victims of the nazi monstrosity.

The occupied people of Europe suffered.

I have to tell you that I don't like very much the distinctions between Jews and Not Jews. They just don't make any sense to me. People suffured and scumbags have to die. That's how I see it.

	28-06-2002 07:34									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The guy's defence is interesting - I'd like to see the judgement. The "I was only following orders" defence was not accepted at Nuremburg but it appears to have been accepted here. Anyway at 93 this guy will soon be facing a higher court

I believe following orders is a valid defence. If you where in the army at that time and you didn't you would have been executed. If the defence isn't upheld, then anyone could sue those people that droped nuclear bombs on japan for crimes against humanity, and "I was just following orders" wouldn't be a defence. Just as the fighter pilots couldn't couldn't use the same excuse for massacring the iraqi army as it was fleeing in any any kind of vechile that would move them.

When a country loses a war they are held to account for every little indescretion , but when a country wins a war the actions of thier soldiers are never questioned even if they murdered thousands.

	28-06-2002 08:12									#157
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IIRC according to US military code there are certain circumstances where a soldier is permitted to refuse to obey an order. These would include the execution of civilians and prisoners. A subordinate might even have a duty to restrain his commanding officer.

	28-06-2002 08:21									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove IIRC according to US military code there are certain circumstances where a soldier is permitted to refuse to obey an order.

They are required to disobey an illegal order.

	28-06-2002 08:32									#159
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Same thing here.. if some higher ranking soldier comes and says to you 'hey kill those civilians, this is an order!' , then by obeying the order the soldier is actually committing illegal activites when in refusal he'd be legal.
It was taught to us in the mil that obeying illegal order is illegal, therefore subjected to military court, which is the same thing as going to the back of sauna and getting a bullet in your head. I think this law is in every country, no? It's another discussion if this is followed in time of war.

	28-06-2002 08:33									#160
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That was not, however, the law in Nazi Germany. You disobey orders, you get shot.

	28-06-2002 08:36									#161
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Too bad. But then again we know what Nazis were like..tough situation for a soldier. You could think that it's either you or them.. so you don't have a choice, but then again after shooting innocent civilians, can you go home when war is over and call yourself a man or a murderer?

	28-06-2002 08:38									#162
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What do you think Bob Kerrey thinks of himself as?

	28-06-2002 08:39									#163
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btw is there any documentation or knowledge of those nazi soldiers ever revolting? Group disobeing orders?

	28-06-2002 08:40									#164
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Who's Bob Kerrey?

	28-06-2002 08:47									#165
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Bob Kerrey is a former U.S. Senator who revealed he participated in a massacre of civilians while in Vietnam.

Several of Hitler's officers tried to assassinate him.

The commander in charge of Paris refused to obey Hitler's orders to burn the city when the Germans were withdrawing.

I know many stories of individual German soldiers acting against orders. I remember hearing of one who refused to kill Jews at one of the camps, and was then shot himself and added to the pile. An SS Officer secretly photographed Auschwitz (he would have been killed if they had known), and today his photos comprise "The Auschwitz Album," one of the most painful books ever to look at.

I know there are probably other instances. But remember that being a German soldier and being a Nazi were two different things. Most soldiers--and most Germans, period--weren't Nazis, just as most Americans aren't Democrats or Republican.

	28-06-2002 08:56									#166
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Oh that guy... i heard of him. He even confessed or something? Yeah.. i don't know the facts and the whole story but if it's true, i hope he faces Justice. But if he's innocent, i hope his reputation is returned.

I know some of those soldiers must of disobeyd orders, as it happens in every war for sure. I didn't know any of those high ranking officers did that too.
Those men are heroes then to me. Not obeying knowing that they'll get shot. True heroism and true men.

	28-06-2002 08:57									#167
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You take 10,000 troops from each country and submit them to the same conditions/war, and you will find that on average no matter what country you take these people from you will create the same number of "monsters"

	28-06-2002 10:17									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That was not, however, the law in Nazi Germany. You disobey orders, you get shot.

That isn't true - As I mentioned with the shooting of Jews, the Police Battalion soldiers had the option not to participate but this was rarely taken up. The soldier's explanation was they were more worried abotu what their fellow soldiers would think of them if they didn't participate in extra judicial killing.