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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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My how things change.
In WWII, partisans attacked off duty German soldiers who responded with reprisal killings of prisoners of war. Today, a German court held that the reprisals were justified in a case involving an SS Major in Italy. Story below.
We have repeatedly heard arguments here (mainly the ME threads) that partisan attacks "remain" OK if they are directed to an occupying power. Of course, reprisal attacks are not OK. Otherwise the flow of Palesinian blood would be a river.
Well, beginning July 1, even partisan attacks will be illegal under the new ICC. I quote Article 8(2)(a)(xi):
quote:
For the purpose of this Statute, "war crimes" means:
(a) Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:
(XI) Killing or wounding treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army; |
CyberGnu, what do you think? Should Arafat call a halt?
The AP story:
quote:
HAMBURG, Germany (AP) - Citing orders from Adolf Hitler, a 93-year-old former SS major on Wednesday defended the killing of Italian prisoners during World War II as a legitimate wartime act.
Speaking outside the courtroom, Friedrich Engel, who is charged with 59 counts of murder, told The Associated Press that Nazi forces were provoked by Italian partisans and said he believed at the time that the massacre was justified.
The Hamburg state court upheld that argument Wednesday, saying rules of war in 1944 did not explicitly outlaw reprisal killings. But the murder case against the Hamburg retiree hinges on the prosecution's allegation that Engel ordered a massacre on May 19, 1944, that was especially cruel.
The Italian captives allegedly were bound in pairs and forced to walk onto a plank over an open grave, where they were shot. The victims then fell into the pit, on top of freshly killed bodies.
Engel is charged with ordering the shootings at the Turchino Pass outside Genoa, where he headed an SS intelligence unit charged with obtaining information about internal enemies to Hitler.
The massacre was in retaliation for an attack on a movie theater that killed five German soldiers. Nearly 60 years later, a court led by a judge born in the year of the massacre is trying to establish the facts in one of Germany's last Nazi war crimes trials.
Engel has told the court he was present and approved the list of prisoners from Genoa's Marassi jail to be shot. But he has denied the charges of murder, saying he shot no one and that the German navy ordered the reprisals.
Engel, a neatly dressed white-haired man who walks with a cane, spoke firmly and without apparent emotion as he sat outside the wood-paneled courtroom where he has been on trial since May 7.
Anger flickered, though, when he denounced the partisans who fought Nazi occupying forces in Italy. "We Germans were provoked with treacherous, underhanded attacks," he said. "The partisans were not honest fighters."
Engel said he was among officials who attended a meeting in Florence led by a Nazi general that laid out Germany's reprisal policy in Italy after a March 23, 1944, bombing killed 32 German policemen in Rome.
The meeting discussed an order by Hitler that 10 Italians should die for every German killed, Engel said.
"The Americans were advancing. An order was handed down to redouble efforts to fight attacks against Germans," he said. "It was up to me to carry out this order from Hitler and my superiors."
When the Genoa shootings were planned a few weeks later, "I was in a position where I had to view it as legitimate," Engel said.
But he said he soon came to doubt that the killings "were right," and he ignored orders a month later for another reprisal shooting.
Prosecutors say the Genoa massacre was particularly gruesome, justifying murder charges.
One witness has testified that Engel "clearly had the job of supervising the shootings" and at one point ordered a lieutenant to shoot a captive lying in the grave but not yet dead. The witness, Walter Emig, who was in the German navy stationed in Genoa, has described Engel as an "ice-cold dog."
Hamburg authorities investigated Engel in 1969 for his role in Nazi executions in Italy. The case was dropped the same year for reasons that aren't known because the files were lost.
But an Italian military court convicted him in absentia in 1999 and sentenced him to life for war crimes connected to a total of 246 deaths.
Italy pressed for Engel's trial after a German television documentary last year drew attention to his case and the fact that he had been living for decades in Hamburg.
A verdict is expected next month, though defense efforts to obtain autopsy results from Italy about the massacre victims could lead to a delay.
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Last edited by Ned on 27-06-2002 at 07:59
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Bereta_Eder
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Citing orders from Adolf Hitler, a 93-year-old former SS major on Wednesday defended the killing of Italian prisoners during World War II as a legitimate wartime act.
where's the puke smilie when you really need it.
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Bereta_Eder
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people under german occupation had the god given right to bloody murder, chop off limps, mayhem, kill, slaughter, massacre and decapitate as many bloody nazis as they wanted to.
if this is considered a *pinky voice* "violent act", well too bad.
Now if this is comperable with Israel, it is a matter of discussion.
I think the defining difference is that the attacks by palestinian activists (sic!) are conducted against civilians. it is a good thing not to forhet that (unless you think that they're responsible since it is a democracy) - which too has its loopholes IMO.
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JCG
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between a rock and a hard place
Feb 2002
time: 00:20
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Well...If you say it's ok to kill Nazis, but the Nazis can't fight back...Then a Palestinian could also say it's okay to kill Jews, but the Jews can't fight back...
That logic doesn't work, at least not in our current world.
Sure, maybe the Germans did pull back from those areas, but they were LOSING the war anyways, and I suppose they had no chance to retake them, nor much of a will to want to do so at the moment.
But then again, if by violent actions you chase away Israeli soldiers, Sharon will just send the tanks rolling in a few hours later. While he's not fighting a war on several fronts, he can afford to do so.
I'm NOT saying Sharon = Hitler, Nazis = Israelis, certainly not, but the analogy is useful, in this PARTICULAR case. I'm not giving my view on the ME conflict here.
But look, until both actions (violent uprisings, violent reprisals) are outlawed, you will be trapped in a never ending circle of violence, in most situations other than WWII.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:20
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freely translated from http://www.mil.fi/ruotuvaki/03_02/19.html
During the continuance war finnish civilians were subjected to harsh acts of murders. They were carried by russian partisans who were discuised as civilians, too.
This document has been collected from those who lost their relatives, survivors, and from official documents.
The new document, released 15th of january, is graphical, and due to that fact, some of the acts couldn't be even released to public because of their gruesome nature.
The official number of victims is 176, which 70% are women and under 17 year old children. Document also clarifies that these acts are crimes against humanity and clearly crimes of war. The victims are not only the dead, but all who lived there.
--------------
and the rest is about the group who wants compensation for the relatives and what they are about to do..
Didn't know that one? I'm not surprised.
edit: point being, they were dressed as civilians, killing civilians, mostly women and young children. Doing nothing but that. Not dressing as soldiers killing soldiers. Not defending country. Just killing civilians. Dearing to call themselves heroes after that (the partisans). Some of the acts not even published because they were so harsh. Not even shameful about it. No courts, no apologies, nothing. Known fact, proof is overwhelming. Nothing. It's a big FU to their loved ones.
Last edited by Pekka on 27-06-2002 at 07:46
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Lorizael
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The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:20
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Violence became the only viable option during World War II only once the war was fully underway.
If Hitler had been stopped before the war had started, then none of the violence on the part of the partisans would have been necessary.
I know people will say I have the benefit of hindsight in this situation. People will say, "Of course there would be less violence if war had been averted, but the war did happen and you can't change that." And so violence was the only option.
But to that I say, we must then change the very way in which we do things in the world. All our focus, all of our resources, should be spent on preventing war and violence so that it never happens in the first place. Instead of constructing a military, learn who your enemy is.
And then turn your enemy into a friend. Because you cannot have a conflict if you do not have enemies. And when you consider one group of people to be an enemy, a conflict is that much easier to achieve.
We will never be able to tell the future. But if we learn how the world works, we can begin to predict it. And if we can predict it, we can make sure that wars don't happen.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent," Isaac Asimov, Foundation.
I think I need to stop reading...
If only psychohistory did exist...
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27-06-2002 03:42
Maybe that court is under the control of former Nazis?
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