27-06-2002 23:45									#91
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Ned:

Attacking fleeing troops and attacking troops that are being transported to the front to fight against you are two different things, wouldn't you say?

	28-06-2002 00:29									#92
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I think retreating troops are fair game in certain circumstances. Had the Allies been going to Bagdad, then slaughtering those soldiers on the Highway of Death would have been legitmate, because if they escaped, they could be rearmed and fight you. However, since they were fleeing an occupied country, and we were only supposed to liberate the country, it then became a war crime. Killing those soldiers was unnecessary.

In the case of troops on a transport train or saying a troop ship being torpedoed by a sub, they are legitimate targets of war. Even if they aren't fighting you now, they might be fighting you or your comrades later.

	28-06-2002 00:38									#93
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I think most of you guys should hope you never have to be at one end or the other of a rifle. I wouldnt predict a long survival time for some of you.

I have not been able to find any information on who the 59 men were that Engels admits he had shot except that they were from some local prison. It does not say anywhere that I could find that they were POW which means that could have been considered partisans (and therefore exempt from the Geneva conventions).

	28-06-2002 00:52									#94
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I think it is permissible to torpedo the troop ship or shoot the locomotive or blow up all the convoy trucks. But once that is done, there should be an obligation to call a halt to the killing. It was common practice even in WWI and WWII to rescue troops floating in the water. To continue to machine gun them rather than take them prisioner where possible is simply not morally acceptable.

Also, I have no idea why partisans, once captured, are not POW's. Is this the position Bush is taking with the al Qaida "detainees?" Are they legally partisans and therefor do not have the rights of POWs?

SpencerH, no I haven't been in combat. However, I do know we were outraged when German troops in the Battle of the Bulge massacred Allied troops who had surrendered.

What are you opinions of the terrorist attack on the US marine barracks in Lebanon in, what, 1982? Was this a legitimate partisan attack or a war cirmie?

Last edited by Ned on 28-06-2002 at 00:59

	28-06-2002 01:08									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Ned SpencerH, no I haven't been in combat. However, I do know we were outraged when German troops in the Battle of the Bulge massacred Allied troops who had surrendered.

Yeah, but did we make a stink when our troops did the same thing to the Germans? No.

	28-06-2002 01:13									#96
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I think most of you guys should hope you never have to be at one end or the other of a rifle. I wouldnt predict a long survival time for some of you.

Don't look at me, my kind isn't allowed...

	28-06-2002 01:18									#97
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Just one small point on the present case against Engel: the ruling of the court was that reprisals, per se, were justified. The case against Engel goes forward because of the cruelty of his executions.

	28-06-2002 01:25									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yeah, but did we make a stink when our troops did the same thing to the Germans? No.

In WWII.

But in Vietnam and Desert Storm, the media was all over our massacres.

And, let me add, the American people were sickened by them.

	28-06-2002 01:30									#99
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SpencerH - IIRC, engeld didn't shoot them but ordered it. And in my opinion those Italian soldieres were not "fair game" at all, although I doubt there can ever be any such thing as a fair game when it comes to stuff like that. He shouldn't be punished anyway, they should have done all that in the 50s already. As a precondition to that, the victors would have had to be less we're-victors-so-we're-basically'gods-like in the Nuremburg trials, but what the heck.-

	28-06-2002 01:36									#100
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Desert Storm highlighted one of the difficulties of modern (standoff) combat:

Much of the damage done - and all of the damage done on the highway of death - was done from the air. It's tough for fleeing ground troops to surrender to a helicopter, or for the helicopter pilot to determine that they're trying to surrender.

See, fleeing troops are fair game, as far as I'm concerned, so long as the war is ongoing. But if they surrender, they are PoW's, and therefore protected. So the question is did the Iraqi troops slaughtered on the highway of death wish to surrender and be spared, or where they retreating in order to regroup and fight? I think now it's fairly obvious that they were broken and fleeing en masse, and were surrendering to any coalition troops they encountered. But it took some time for us to realize it.

The other issue with Desert Storm was the limited scope of the war. In the context of WWII, which was an all-out, knock-down, drag-out slugfest, allowing enemy troops to escape so they can fight you again would be stupid. So you bomb the crap out of 'em, even if they've been routed. But we weren't trying to take over Iraq. We were there to kick Iraq out of Kuwait. Therefore, while I'm not sure it was a "war crime" it may have been excessive. I honestly don't think even our commanders were prepared for how superior our forces were, and how devastating the attack would turn out to be.

-Arrian

	28-06-2002 01:44									#101
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Conclusion: no soldier is ever fair game, war should be forbidden.

Case closed.

	28-06-2002 02:10									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think it is permissible to torpedo the troop ship or shoot the locomotive or blow up all the convoy trucks. But once that is done, there should be an obligation to call a halt to the killing.

Why? The objective in war is to kill the enemy not to be some kind of chivalrous knight.

quote: It was common practice even in WWI and WWII to rescue troops floating in the water. To continue to machine gun them rather than take them prisioner where possible is simply not morally acceptable.

The alternative in some cases is to let them drown. Thats not to say that I would personally agree with such actions.

quote: Also, I have no idea why partisans, once captured, are not POW's. Is this the position Bush is taking with the al Qaida "detainees?" Are they legally partisans and therefor do not have the rights of POWs?

In order to be considered as a soldier and thus a POW if captured you must wear a uniform and be identifiable as a combatant. Partisans blur the distinction between combatants and non-combatants and are therefore treated in the same fashion as spies or criminals. As for Al Queda, they were not part of any Afghan army and AFAIK many or most were not Afghani. I'd classify them as partisans/mercenaries and try them as such in front of a military tribunal.

quote: SpencerH, no I haven't been in combat. However, I do know we were outraged when German troops in the Battle of the Bulge massacred Allied troops who had surrendered.

We won that war so we got to say who were the "bad guys"

quote: What are you opinions of the terrorist attack on the US marine barracks in Lebanon in, what, 1982? Was this a legitimate partisan attack or a war cirmie?

Well since it was an action against a military target, I'd classify it as a partisan rather than a terrorist attack. If we had captured any of those partisans, on the other hand, I wouldnt have granted them POW status. I'd have tried them as murderers and once convicted by a military tribunal I'd have hung them.

	28-06-2002 02:15									#103
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The alternative in some cases is to let them drown. Thats not to say that I would personally agree with such actions. .

Gee, is it more fun to drown after being shot?

	28-06-2002 02:16									#104
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So let me ask you "chivalrous" types this ?

If I'm a sniper and I shoot from concealment with a nightscope and a silenced rifle from a distance where you dont have a hope in hell of spotting me, Is that OK? You're virtually a sitting duck with no more chance than the fleeing Iraqi army.

	28-06-2002 02:18									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Gee, is it more fun to drown after being shot?

I dont know.


Heres as inane a question would you rather drown, or be shot?

	28-06-2002 02:18									#106
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Our warfare should revert to a 1070 AD standard. Very Manzikert, very Chivalry, wars very religion-based.

	28-06-2002 02:19									#107
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I'd rather be taken a POW, SH.

	28-06-2002 02:22									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion Our warfare should revert to a 1070 AD standard. Very Manzikert, very Chivalry, wars very religion-based.

Geez Ecthelion, have you ever read anything about the way the Crusaders conducted warfare? They were as bad as the Nazis about butchering prisoners and civilians.

Wasn't Chivalry a 14th or 15th century idea?

	28-06-2002 02:29									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion I'd rather be taken a POW, SH.

Its not always possible. "Saving private Ryan" showed a good example of the conflicts faced by troops who were not in a position to take a POW.

	28-06-2002 02:29									#110
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Probably was. At least knights dfidn't fly planes, but you're right, anything pre-1200 would be barbaric. So let's just say ... erm... well, was there ever a tiem when civilians... yeah, 19th century. If I'm not mistaken, then civilians were least harmed in 18th and 19th century. enough technology to supply soldiers without the population totally declining in the area, not enough technology to make population a target.

unless it came t ocity bombardments, of course

	28-06-2002 02:30									#111
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Didn't see that movie.

But I tell you one thing. If you guys ever invade us, I'll be a partisan

	28-06-2002 02:32									#112
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Well you better hope someone like Ned catches you and not someone like me

	28-06-2002 02:33									#113
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Someone like Ned would end up in his own country pseudo-debating things to death.

I know, but look: there's that airport in the north of this ctiy, where I live. The military is to abandon it, but it might re-activate it under some circumstances. I'd be dead anyway, due to precise American bombing. Therefore, I'd rather fight

Where's that AK..

	28-06-2002 02:39									#114
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Ah, but then you should rather put on a uniform and defend your country. Thats a totally different matter then if I could take you POW I would.

	28-06-2002 02:42									#115
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But I'd have to take orders and couldn't be the cool guy in my neighbourhood.

That attitude is very Chechnya, I know.

	28-06-2002 03:02									#116
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a good nazi is a dead nazi.

simple.
now move on

	28-06-2002 03:10									#117
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The objective in war is to kill the enemy not to be some kind of chivalrous knight.

A quote directly from Patton, I believe.

I think the objective is to defeat the enemy with as few casualties on both sides as possible.

I believe your attitude, Spencer, is what the ICC calls "no quarter." If what you said is really true, the use of poison gas, bio-weapons or battlefield nuclears weapons would be quite permissible because the objective of piling up the corpses as high as possible would be the thing to do in all circumstances.

Earlier in this thread we had the example of the English soldiers being massacred while assualting a German position. The Brits felt the German troops had gone way to far in defense of their position.

	28-06-2002 03:22									#118
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Heh, and the Germans were supposed to do what, as long as they saw a possibility?

Of course, they could have given up as soon as they noticed the enemy was overwhelming, but we don't know the details about that combat phase.

	28-06-2002 03:23									#119
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 a good nazi is a dead nazi. simple. now move on

So - Engel is a Nazi. No further crime need be alleged. Just shoot him now.

Is that your position?

	28-06-2002 03:26									#120
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Ned, this is a n odd conflict. Paiktis is a spammer, you're a debater. There's no point for you in replying to short comments of him like that.

Engel is too old for that rap anyway, but I get the feeling he's to be considered guilty, but again:

We don't know the friggin details