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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Jon, you're missing the major point: even with the tax credits amounting to 2500$, most low-income families won't be able to afford sending their kids o yuppie schools that cost 10 000$ p.a. This means that the main beneficiaries are going to be those who could already afford to send their kids to private school and who have just been granted a 2500$ rebate.
Once these higher-income parents have been given additional incentive to send their kids to private school, they have no reason to want to pay taxes to support public schools, and school budgets will shrink, hurting the lower-income students who still can't afford to go to school with the yuppies... |
me and 3 of my siblings went to a horrid public school
my younger brother went for one year and then my mom put him in a private school
it is really hard on her because she doesn't have the money
she gets in debt every year to send him there, but putting him in a school where he will have a chance to gain an education is important (I don't know if you have heard of my high school , but it was very bad)
just lowering the yearly debt by 2500 would be great for her (She just put herself through college and so has debt from that as well)
there should be decent public schools available, but if there is not, then there shold be ways that students who want it can get a decent education
if she had a bit less money or worst credit she would not be able to send him there, I think about all the people who are slightly poorer than she is and realise that there are a lot of people vouchers can help (especially if they are increased)
Jon Miller
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- Groucho -
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Look at it this way, Jon. I for one currently support the public school system. But if you bring in vouchers, I'll have to seriously think about pulling my kids from public school because of the damage that will be done to it. I'm willing to work with a flawed system to make it better, but if the government abandons that system, my kids are outta there.
I'm not alone. Vouchers will turn public schools into ghettos where the only attendees will be the ones who can't afford to get out. As much as I feel for your mom, all the kids who will be left behind have moms too.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Echinda
KH is exactly right. Add to that the problem that public schools will be required to teach the kids that private schools refuse to take (who are usually the ones that require more funding due to behavioural issues or special needs) and you've got a recipe for disaster.
I, for one, despite being a "yuppy" who could afford otherwise, am sending my kids to public school. For all the above reasons and because I don't want my kids to turn out to be private school snots. |
so you would rather send you child to a public school where most girls are pregnant
there are 2 classes that migh prepare one for college (in AP lit class and Humanities, both taught by one teacher)
a senior class only has 40% graduation rate (that is of the people in the senior class, about half drop out before they get to that point)
where 20% of those who graduate then go on to get a post highschool degree (I think there might be a few who are still working on ones)
Crack and heavy drug use is over half of the student body
where the senior class president of the class below me was kicked out for prostitution
it is not a winning environment (and I knew many people who despite coming from decent homes did not make it to having a successful life, and none of those coming from more problem homes (That I know) have had a successful life)
private school does not have to turn your kids into snots
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Echinda
Look at it this way, Jon. I for one currently support the public school system. But if you bring in vouchers, I'll have to seriously think about pulling my kids from public school because of the damage that will be done to it. I'm willing to work with a flawed system to make it better, but if the government abandons that system, my kids are outta there.
I'm not alone. Vouchers will turn public schools into ghettos where the only attendees will be the ones who can't afford to get out. As much as I feel for your mom, all the kids who will be left behind have moms too. |
right now kids are being left behind
vouchers means that less are (but still to many)
we need to fix the public system
but why doom a generation while we try to fix the system?
and there are at least a few places where the public institutions are good (and sometimes better than the possible private institutions)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Now if they were to make it so that basically all students to were able to take advantage of the private school system, I'd be all in favour of it.
I attended a semi-private (partially paid for by the government) high school. It cost ~2000 $CAN p.a., a fee that is within the reach of almost all parents, and it also ran a bursary program for lower-income students... |
but with vouchers that puts the price for parents at 1400 dollars
that is possible for most parents
Jon Miller
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- Groucho -
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Jon: your example is unfair. Nowhere close to all public schools are like the one you describe. My daughter goes to a nice public elementary school with a great mix of kids from all income brackets. No, i wouldn't want her to go to the school you described. But I don't want to condem all the kids who can't afford to get out to schools like that either.
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- Groucho -
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
we need to fix the public system
but why doom a generation while we try to fix the system?
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I agree. But taking money out of the public system through vouchers is going to make the problem worse, not better.
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Jon Miller
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but by putting on vouchers for problem schools it will allow student who want to to go elsewhere
while the school is being fixed
(those who don't caer will of course remain there, and that is their choice)
there are many schools like mine and students (expecially students who care like me) should not be forced to attend them
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Echinda
I agree. But taking money out of the public system through vouchers is going to make the problem worse, not better. |
how is it taking money out of the public system
it definitely doesn't half to (if it does right now)
and also, one of the big problems with the public system is problems with waste
they spend money on the wrong things
Jon Miller
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- Groucho -
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It takes money out by reducing the amount of money in the budget to spend on education. The money has to come from somewhere and I don't think state and federal regulators are going to raise new taxes to pay for it.
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Jon Miller
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so when we spend money on making new roads or on medicare it takes from education
well in a way yes, but just because it goes to support that student for private education does not mean it would support that student in public education
if there was not this voucher program what makes you think the money would be spent on the student in public school
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Jon, why would parents who have no intention of sending their children to public schools vote to increase their own taxes (or even maintain them) in order to help these same public schools?
A mass move into private educaton will kill any hopes for the public school system, and a voucher program that benefits mainly the rich will guarantee that it happens. |
if the voucher program benefits mainly the rich how will there be a mass move to private education??
the rich are a minority in the US at least
and when the public schools get better (most) people will move back to them (because they are cheaper)
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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I am not sure what you are answering KrazyHorse
Jon Miller
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:20
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Timexwatch, et al.:
Heh. That's the next upcoming "trend" among Americans — "Hey! I don't have any kids. Why should I have to pay for any sort of tax for education?" Or, "My kids graduated years ago. I shouldn't have to fork over any tax money now for education, since I'm not benefiting from it."
People wonder why some public schools fare poorly when it comes to educating their students. On the surface, it may look simple: They're not doing their job. Oftentimes, however, when you actually lift the hood to take a look at the "engine" beneath, you find *multiple* causes for crappy public school performance:
1. Some school personnel are, indeed, not qualified to teach.
2. The school is in a poor district, or a poor neighborhood.
—2A. This raises the question: Why is the neighborhood/district poor? What can be done to enhance the tax stream?
—2B. People living in or near poverty generally are struggling just to survive and, as such, don't pay much in taxes. They might also have severe cases of apathy due to their life circumstances. This in turn can lead to a loss of morality and allows familiar problems to crop up with their kids, which public schools are then forced to deal with.
3. Public schools have to teach *all* aspects of society, and, as a rule, cannot exclude certain types of people due to their income level, religion, ethnicity and whatnot. Private schools *do* have this luxury of being exclusionary to whatever degree they prefer, so I sure as hell would hope they'd do a better job of educating the "cream of the crop" students they choose to take in.
4. Taxes. Even in districts that are not really poor, you always have a fight over paying taxes in order to fund schools (among other government entities).
5. Equipment. The better financed a school is, the more likely it will be able to upgrade its equipment as necessary and/or make repairs to existing equipment.
There are, undoubtably, other reasons for poor (and good) school performances. But it all comes down to the fact that, what looks like a simple picture from afar, is actually a jigsaw puzzle of pieces forming said picture that are breaking up.
If we want a good public education — and we need one, if we want to maintain a free and democratic nation — we need to address these concerns. Throwing public money into private education isn't going to solve things. The last thing America needs is an education system that is driven by religious indoctrination and/or a profit motive. If that comes to pass, you can kiss America as you know it good-bye within a generation or two.
Gatekeeper
(P.S. If a person pays $4000 in taxes every year, and $1000 of that is a public school tax, and they insist on private schooling ... I'd give them a $1000 tax rebate and let 'em go. There would be no government subsidizing of private education; the individual would have to make up the difference in tuition.)
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Jon Miller
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hmm
maybe(I don't have a job this summer so I have just been lazy)
I haven't ate yet though and am getting hungery (3pm my time)
perhaps after?? (4:00pm eastern)
Jon Miller
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- Groucho -
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
Anyone who pays taxes should have the right to use a credit to send there kid to a better school. |
You can't run a country like that. I pay taxes that fund farm and steel subsidies that I think are nuts. But I don't and shouldn't have the right to direct that my tax dollars not be spent that way. My tax dollars aren't allowed to be used to fund UN programs on birth control in third world nations. That is moronic and if I had the right to direct my taxes, that would change. But I don't have that right, and I shouldn't have that right. A country won't work that way.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
hmm
maybe(I don't have a job this summer so I have just been lazy)
I haven't ate yet though and am getting hungery (3pm my time)
perhaps after?? (4:00pm eastern)
Jon Miller |
this was for faded
Jon Miller
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Timexwatch, et al.:
Heh. That's the next upcoming "trend" among Americans — "Hey! I don't have any kids. Why should I have to pay for any sort of tax for education?" Or, "My kids graduated years ago. I shouldn't have to fork over any tax money now for education, since I'm not benefiting from it."
People wonder why some public schools fare poorly when it comes to educating their students. On the surface, it may look simple: They're not doing their job. Oftentimes, however, when you actually lift the hood to take a look at the "engine" beneath, you find *multiple* causes for crappy public school performance:
1. Some school personnel are, indeed, not qualified to teach.
2. The school is in a poor district, or a poor neighborhood.
—2A. This raises the question: Why is the neighborhood/district poor? What can be done to enhance the tax stream?
—2B. People living in or near poverty generally are struggling just to survive and, as such, don't pay much in taxes. They might also have severe cases of apathy due to their life circumstances. This in turn can lead to a loss of morality and allows familiar problems to crop up with their kids, which public schools are then forced to deal with.
3. Public schools have to teach *all* aspects of society, and, as a rule, cannot exclude certain types of people due to their income level, religion, ethnicity and whatnot. Private schools *do* have this luxury of being exclusionary to whatever degree they prefer, so I sure as hell would hope they'd do a better job of educating the "cream of the crop" students they choose to take in.
4. Taxes. Even in districts that are not really poor, you always have a fight over paying taxes in order to fund schools (among other government entities).
5. Equipment. The better financed a school is, the more likely it will be able to upgrade its equipment as necessary and/or make repairs to existing equipment.
There are, undoubtably, other reasons for poor (and good) school performances. But it all comes down to the fact that, what looks like a simple picture from afar, is actually a jigsaw puzzle of pieces forming said picture that are breaking up.
If we want a good public education — and we need one, if we want to maintain a free and democratic nation — we need to address these concerns. Throwing public money into private education isn't going to solve things. The last thing America needs is an education system that is driven by religious indoctrination and/or a profit motive. If that comes to pass, you can kiss America as you know it good-bye within a generation or two.
Gatekeeper
(P.S. If a person pays $4000 in taxes every year, and $1000 of that is a public school tax, and they insist on private schooling ... I'd give them a $1000 tax rebate and let 'em go. There would be no government subsidizing of private education; the individual would have to make up the difference in tuition.) |
I think that the per pupil local tax is much higher than 2500
Jon Miller
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27-06-2002 23:03
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