29-06-2002 03:37									#121
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Tell me, Victor. Which schools don't matter in the academic sense?

	29-06-2002 03:42									#122
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Any school that sucks as much as the public schools around it.

	29-06-2002 05:53									#123
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Okay, that international test I was talking about is the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (there may be a more recent one than this, but I don't have any info on it).
This was taken by AP and Honors students.

In the overall math contest, Americans were 15th out of 16. In calculus, 14th out of 15. In geometry they were dead last.

We didn't do better in science, either. Those AP high-school physics seniors did even worse. Dead last, 25% below the leader (Norway).

Now, the really interesting thing about this particular test is that there were also versions given to 4th and 8th graders.
Our fourth graders were 12th out of 26, with a third overall in science (quite a surprise, no?). Now, it was only 10th in the hard sciences (chemistry and physics rather than environmental), but still...
Now, by 8th grade things had changed a bit. They managed a 28th out of 41 in math.
And, of course, you've already seen how our 12th graders did.

Looks like the longer you stay in US public schools, the dumber you get...

Wraith
"Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education."
-- Bertrand Russell

	29-06-2002 06:44									#124
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It depends on location as well. My public education was better than any private education I could have recieved (with perhaps only extreme examples).

A matter of fact, where I live, the people that go to private school go there because they were too dumb to cut it in public school.

	29-06-2002 07:04									#125
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Echinda:

That's a good argument, but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. You would need to have virtually everybody going to private schools to get that effect. Consider when a new subway station opened near our house. The prices of all houses rose, even though only about 15 percent of the people used the subway. The provision of an amenity clearly affected all housing prices.

All:

Remember that the introduction of vouchers involves comparing some type of privae school versus failing public schools.

	29-06-2002 07:49									#126
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Jon Miller wrote:

quote: people should have a choice to, instead of being forced to use the public schools

Huh? People already have a choice. No one is forced to send their children to public schools. This ruling is about whether taxpayers' money will be allowed to support religious institutions. An altogether dismaying - but not entirely unexpected - ruling.

Echinda wrote:

quote: I agree. But taking money out of the public system through vouchers is going to make the problem worse, not better.

Precisely the problem with this whole dumb notion.

	29-06-2002 08:09									#127
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye Jon Miller wrote: quote: people should have a choice to, instead of being forced to use the public schools Huh? People already have a choice. No one is forced to send their children to public schools. This ruling is about whether taxpayers' money will be allowed to support religious institutions. An altogether dismaying - but not entirely unexpected - ruling. Echinda wrote: quote: I agree. But taking money out of the public system through vouchers is going to make the problem worse, not better. Precisely the problem with this whole dumb notion.

Mindseye, Only the well-to-do have a choice today. Vouchers democratize the choice.

	29-06-2002 08:43									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith Okay, that international test I was talking about is the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (there may be a more recent one than this, but I don't have any info on it). This was taken by AP and Honors students. In the overall math contest, Americans were 15th out of 16. In calculus, 14th out of 15. In geometry they were dead last. We didn't do better in science, either. Those AP high-school physics seniors did even worse. Dead last, 25% below the leader (Norway).

Interesting stats. The US performed poorly, but according to the TIMSS:

"When one compares just U.S. twelfth graders with Advanced Placement calculus instruction to all advanced
mathematics students in other nations, their performance was at the international average and significantly higher than 5 other countries."

And overall:
"U.S. students in their final year of secondary school were less likely to be taking mathematics or science than were their counterparts in other countries."

Does TIMSS measure creativity and other thinking skills, or is it a measurement of rote memorization ability?

Obviously, there are problems with the US education system.

	29-06-2002 21:51									#129
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quote: "When one compares just U.S. twelfth graders with Advanced Placement calculus instruction to all advanced mathematics students in other nations, their performance was at the international average and significantly higher than 5 other countries."

-Yes, but how small of a percentage of US students is that?

quote: "U.S. students in their final year of secondary school were less likely to be taking mathematics or science than were their counterparts in other countries."

-Which explains why American education sucks.

quote: Does TIMSS measure creativity and other thinking skills, or is it a measurement of rote memorization ability?

-Calculus involves much more than rote memorization ability. If you rely solely on that, you will suck at calculus or die trying to learn it.