27-06-2002 23:48									#61
	Tired of ads?

Sure Im not doing anything today. Nobodies here. Im sitting on my ass eating grahm crackers and browsing ACS. I could play till about 7:00. Then my girlfiend and I will go to the gym to workout.

3 hours is long enough . Email me when you are ready. (changed email addy, new one is on sig.)

	28-06-2002 00:01									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Choice is very much needed. More money to the educational weenies will just lead to more sillyness like open classrooms and whole language, etc. Public schools need a kick in the ass. If they lose the good students who cares? They can just consolidate and be the educator of last resort.

	28-06-2002 00:05									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And? Is there a problem of giving choice within public system? Send your kid to whatever school you want. Make funding dependent on number of students attending. Mandate basic curriculum (what needs to be passed on tests), but let schools choose teaching style/order/methodology. If admins want to keep their job they'll attract students.

Following market ideology for schools will just lead to disaster for those who can't afford it...

	28-06-2002 00:17									#64
	Remove this text

Those people are already in disasterous schools...

	28-06-2002 00:19									#65
	Got spare money?

teachers unions dont wont this, public schools dont want it. why? less money for them. Its a damn monopoly now anyways. Break it up. The schools are shitholes now, not because of lack of funding. But because of poor allocation of it. Adding new buildings yet neglecting aging books that still show 2 germanys.

My dad grew up in a school with 500 kids in 8 rooms. Hardly any money for the teachers and even less for shiny buildings. Why is it people cant do that now?

If private schools have better results, then so what. Its about the kids not about teachers unions and such

	28-06-2002 00:19									#66
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GP, so only the poor kids get screwed with the educator of last resort? Terrific.

	28-06-2002 00:23									#67
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quote: Anyone who pays taxes should have the right to use a credit to send there kid to a better school.

-That's like saying that anyone who pays money to the government should have a right to get it back because they're not happy with what it's being spent on... that's not a can of worms you want to open.

quote: The public school is a mess.

-Yes and no.

quote: Ya you can fix it, but I think people are to pre-occupied trying to fix the school as an institution. Im more worried about the kids getting the shaft.

-And pulling money out of the school system will help quality tremendously

quote: Choice is very much needed.

-Like Hell it is.

quote: Public schools need a kick in the ass. If they lose the good students who cares? They can just consolidate and be the educator of last resort.

-Yeah, screw those poor kids... who needs 'em anyway

quote: Its a damn monopoly now anyways. Break it up. The schools are shitholes now, not because of lack of funding. But because of poor allocation of it. Adding new buildings yet neglecting aging books that still show 2 germanys.

-You're suggesting that monopolies are bad?

quote: My dad grew up in a school with 500 kids in 8 rooms. Hardly any money for the teachers and even less for shiny buildings. Why is it people cant do that now?

-Because that building is now physically collapsing and needs replacing.

quote: If private schools have better results, then so what. Its about the kids not about teachers unions and such

-So you want the rich kids to get a better education than they do now, the poor kids to get a worse one, and then we can have a sort of aristocracy based on money...

	28-06-2002 00:28									#68
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-And pulling money out of the school system will help quality tremendously


who ever said to do this??


-Yeah, screw those poor kids... who needs 'em anyway


they are already being screwed

I an others just think that they need help


-So you want the rich kids to get a better education than they do now, the poor kids to get a worse one, and then we can have a sort of aristocracy based on money...

poor ones are already getting thte worst possible (ie none)

rich are already getting better

this will help the middle class and those poor who care about education

instead of the current situation where those groups get screwed

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 00:37									#69
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quote: who ever said to do this??

-Vouchers cost money don't they? You don't expect to just make money materialize out of thin air do you?

quote: they are already being screwed

-So just make their schools even worse?

quote: I an others just think that they need help

-You wouldn't help them any by allowing the richer portion of the school to leave, leaving the poor trapped in even worse educational conditions.

quote: poor ones are already getting thte worst possible (ie none) rich are already getting better

-And so accentuating this trend is ok because it's already happening?

quote: this will help the middle class and those poor who care about education

-You can care as much as you want, but these vouchers won't cover the cost of any private school, so you're just making it cheaper for the rich, and affordable for some middle class families who were barely out of reach.

	28-06-2002 00:40									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Vouchers cost money don't they? You don't expect to just make money materialize out of thin air do you?

but who said that the money being used would have gone to a public school otherwise

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 00:42									#71
	Got spare money?

Well, where would that much money come from? The government's already facing a deficit.

	28-06-2002 00:44									#72
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So you want the rich kids to get a better education than they do now, the poor kids to get a worse one, and then we can have a sort of aristocracy based on money"

How would vouchers (which give poor kids the chance to go to private schools) do this? Please explain.....

"-Because that building is now physically collapsing and needs replacing"

Point is you dont need to throw even more money at a system that spends 2700 per head . Money is not the problem apparently.

	28-06-2002 00:46									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Well, where would that much money come from? The government's already facing a deficit.

where it always comes from

the deficit

that is where the education money is coming from in the first place

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 00:47									#74
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I sent you an email faded glory

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 00:47									#75
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The problem, faded, has already been pointed out: the vouchers do not defray enough of the cost for low-income students to attend private schools. Essentially, this makes good press, and yes, technically, it is easier for a poor kid to attend a private school. BUT, he/she still needs to come up with the rest of the cash (fat chance), and they need to be accepted by the school in the first place (fatter chance).

I don't think it's unconstitutional. I just think it's not necessarily good policy.

	28-06-2002 00:49									#76
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I have lots of radical idea's about school anyway. I wonder if anyone shares these.


School should end at 16. After 16 you've learned most of the basics. At this point, all a normal person wants to do is get a job, work at your pace and towards a career and chase members of the opposite sex. So why does this need to happen in High school?


I say, get them out of the high-school and into a Tech school adult lecture envirmoment that teaches them life skills, introduction to college, and have them choose a career path at take some introduction courses. After that its there choice if they want to leave at the age of 18 or continue, with school, or make the leap to college.


pretty crazy huh?

	28-06-2002 00:50									#77
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most private schools will accept you if you do not have a history of trouble

yes, this is a limitation, but one which is within their rights

there are also a lot of fairly cheap private schools which would be in the price range of a poor family with vouchers (if education was important to them)

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 00:53									#78
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quote: How would vouchers (which give poor kids the chance to go to private schools) do this? Please explain.....

-Truly poor kids would have no chance to find a private school with this little money, only people almost rich enough for private school would benefit... along with rich families who would get money back for the same education as before.

quote: Point is you dont need to throw even more money at a system that spends 2700 per head . Money is not the problem apparently

-Do you realize how ridiculously little that is. If you maintain say a 20:1 student to teachers ratio, that doesn't even pay the teachers enough.

There's no point in making the deficit any bigger for vouchers.

	28-06-2002 00:58									#79
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quote: I have lots of radical idea's about school anyway. I wonder if anyone shares these.

-Those of us who still remember school probably don't.

quote: School should end at 16. After 16 you've learned most of the basics. At this point, all a normal person wants to do is get a job, work at your pace and towards a career and chase members of the opposite sex. So why does this need to happen in High school?

-No, that's a person who doesn't want to get anywhere in life. I had most of my more interesting courses after the age of 16, and I certainly would not have wanted to or been able to go out on my own at 16. I don't think a 16 year old should be trusted with a driver's liscence.

quote: I say, get them out of the high-school and into a Tech school adult lecture envirmoment that teaches them life skills, introduction to college, and have them choose a career path at take some introduction courses. After that its there choice if they want to leave at the age of 18 or continue, with school, or make the leap to college.

-Why break the system even further?

quote: there are also a lot of fairly cheap private schools which would be in the price range of a poor family with vouchers (if education was important to them)

-ROTFLMAO... riiight

	28-06-2002 00:58									#80
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Victor

Teacers in Public school get paid 1.5 times those in private school

that is not the issue (even though I agree that they need paid more)

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 00:59									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -ROTFLMAO... riiight

that was from person expereince

so at least in Oregon it is true

(and BTW, I beleive that you were one of the lucky few who had a good high school, most do not, so I do not think it is your place to doom them)

Jon Miller

	28-06-2002 01:01									#82
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

hey job i replied.....im wating for your response. I need some setup info yet.

	28-06-2002 01:02									#83
	Tired of ads?

How about making it like the financial aid system for college? You have to apply for it and it is disbursed based upon need.

	28-06-2002 01:03									#84
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quote: that was from person expereince so at least in Oregon it is true

-Private schools around where I live go for about £(pretend that's a dollar sign, I have an English keyboard)12,000/year. No way in hell a poor family can afford that. Heck, my mom couldn't afford to send me there.

quote: (and BTW, I beleive that you were one of the lucky few who had a good high school, most do not, so I do not think it is your place to doom them)

-That I had a good school is an understatement. We liked to laugh at the private schools whose asses we regularly kicked in academic competitions.

	28-06-2002 01:03									#85
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Count on the "godless communist" to make sense. Shouldn't you be out purging people or something?

	28-06-2002 01:05									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Or how about we not bankrupt the country, che. If the demand for private schools increased that dramatically so would the price.

	28-06-2002 01:10									#87
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hey, if they want their vouchers, they ought to be fair about it. Need-based financial aid--subsidized and unsubsidized loans, work-study, grants--would allow people to leave failing school systems, and it would provide equal opportunities (or, actually, as close as we can get, which ain't that close) for all students. If they want vouchers, they ought to do the right thing; no more half-measures and lip service.

Or, they could actually try to fix the public school system. But what sense does that make?

	28-06-2002 01:13									#88
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Anyway... going to see if I can play some rugby, other people need to use this computer to type their Art Papers of Death^TM.

	28-06-2002 01:26									#89
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by GP Those people are already in disasterous schools...

I hardly think that dropping significant amounts of funding and increasing public apathy toward their situation will help them any...

Public schools, where I live, have problems but are not even close to disastrous.

	28-06-2002 01:29									#90
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If we had a real voucher system that gives genuine opportunity to the poor, I would support it. Like if we expanded FAFSA to secondary schools.

However, half-assed programs only draw richer kids and their good grades (and disproportionate funding) from the public system.