27-06-2002 20:47									#1
	Supreme Court Rules Vouchers to Be Constitutional! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/27/s...hers/index.html

quote: WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court ruled 5-4 Thursday that the school voucher program is constitutional and does not constitute the establishment of religion. The ruling reverses a lower court which said nearly all low-income students receiving the vouchers were using the tax supported vouchers to attend Catholic schools in Cleveland. Rehnquist delivered the decision joined by O'Connor, Scalia, Kennedy and Thomas. The court endorsed a 6-year-old pilot program in inner-city Cleveland that provides parents a tax-supported education stipend. Parents may use the money to opt out of one of the worst-rated public schools in the nation. The court majority said the program does not put the government in the unconstitutional position of sponsoring religious indoctrination, even though more than 95 percent of the vouchers are used to subsidize Catholic or other religious schooling. Bush has been a staunch advocate of school vouchers, and emphasized the issue in his campaign for the White House. Congress last year shelved that effort. But Bush resurrected the idea, proposing in his 2003 budget to give families up to $2,500 per child in tax credits if they choose a private school rather than a failing neighborhood public school. Following the court's hearing on arguments in February, Education Secretary Rod Paige said he would continue advocating on behalf of both improved public schools and school choice. Republican lawmakers in Congress agreed with Bush's stance.

Discuss.

	27-06-2002 20:49									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

I never thought of it as being unconstitutional, I just always felt it was the wrong way to go...

	27-06-2002 20:52									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Same here... the Constitution isn't that broad on many things, that people believe it to be.

But we need someone to disagree or this will be a short thread

	27-06-2002 21:07									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Giving parents credits and telling them to do what they want with 'em... doesn't really seem unconstitutional to me.

Sorry to disappoint, Imran.

	27-06-2002 22:05									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Just because a bunch of conservatives in Washington say they're constitutional doesn't mean they're a good idea.

	27-06-2002 22:15									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Wouldn't a better idea be to put some dollars into public education so its not crap. It seems like they are saying to people that we know the public schools are garbage so we will help pay to send them elsewhere.

	27-06-2002 22:18									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes agreed flubber.....start putting up some money for the teachers in public schools instead of giving it to parents so they can send their kids to litle yuppie school.

	27-06-2002 22:20									#8
	Remove this text

why would they be a bad idea

in many places school vouchers would give the poor a chance and education which is edcent which had previously only be allowed for the rich

this is a great triumph for the proletariat who were being denied decent education from the public institutions (in many cases)

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:24									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by drake Yes agreed flubber.....start putting up some money for the teachers in public schools instead of giving it to parents so they can send their kids to litle yuppie school.

most private school teachers get paid much less than public school ones

this suggests that this is not the main issue (even though I do think that teachers shold be paid more)

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:25									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Wouldn't a better idea be to put some dollars into public education so its not crap. It seems like they are saying to people that we know the public schools are garbage so we will help pay to send them elsewhere.

some of the crapiest public education gets the most money

and why should the poor be forced to use public eduation while public education tries to get better?

this just srews the poor over, the rich have enough money to make sure their kids get decent education anyway

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:26									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I dont quite understand how private schools can accept public funding and yet still pick and choose who they accept into their student body. The money may be there to barely cover tuition, but will schools like Country Day or Friends school take on somebody who is considered "special ed" in public schools?

	27-06-2002 22:26									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

"most private school teachers get paid much less than public school ones "

Link???

	27-06-2002 22:29									#13
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by drake "most private school teachers get paid much less than public school ones " Link???

this is based upon personal expereince

all the private school teachers I know (from 12+ private schools) get paid much less than the teachers at the public school I went to

and the public school I went to paid their teachers squat compared to the other public schools in Oregon (the were serious problems with teachers leaving to get paid better elsewhere in the state)

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:30									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave I dont quite understand how private schools can accept public funding and yet still pick and choose who they accept into their student body. The money may be there to barely cover tuition, but will schools like Country Day or Friends school take on somebody who is considered "special ed" in public schools?

private institutions have the right to pick and choose

there are no complaints (or I have heard of none) of private colleges having students who go to college based on federal grants (hey I had a few)

this is the same thing, just for the lower grades

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:35									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wow! The Pledge of Alliegence illegal, and school vouchers legal all in one week. Ain't the law grand!

	27-06-2002 22:36									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I was thinking of special needs children - ie learning disabilities, children with ADD, para and quadriplegic. If they are systematically turned away by the private institutions who dont have the time or resources to deal with them, that's not much of a "choice" .

	27-06-2002 22:37									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by drake "most private school teachers get paid much less than public school ones " Link???

hmmm

I thinkk I found one with a little searching

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/ce/c9756d06.html

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:39									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave I was thinking of special needs children - ie learning disabilities, children with ADD, para and quadriplegic. If they are systematically turned away by the private institutions who dont have the time or resources to deal with them, that's not much of a "choice" .

the schools are private

so they have a choice

people should have a choice to, instead of being forced to use the public schools

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:41									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

from the web site some key numbers


Average Salaries
Average Lowest Average Highest
Public Teachers 21,653 $31,655
Private Teachers 14,218 23,426

as you can see

Private school teachers get paid a lot less in 1997 and I would assume it would be so today also

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:43									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

crap my table really messed up

here is the stats
Public teachers
Average high salary 31,655
average low salary 21,653

Private teachers
Average high salary 23,426
average low salary 14,218

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:44									#21
	Suffering from ads?

Hmmm, the Dept. of Ed. indicates that at the 50th percentile, tuition in private secondary schools is $4,000 for church based schools and $5,000 for non-church based schools.

If the voucher Bush is contemplating is only $2,600, doesn't that disproportionately favour wealthier families who can make up the difference?

I'm not in favour of vouchers, but if you're going to have them, at least make them fair.

	27-06-2002 22:45									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Thanks for the numbers Jon. I appreciate you taking the time.

Must be the only profession in the world where quality of work isn't relative to the pay, and is tolerated.

	27-06-2002 22:46									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

oh, I should say, those are the without salary schedules schools

the with salary schedule schools have similiar disparities between public and private school teachers

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:47									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Echinda Hmmm, the Dept. of Ed. indicates that at the 50th percentile, tuition in private secondary schools is $4,000 for church based schools and $5,000 for non-church based schools. If the voucher Bush is contemplating is only $2,600, doesn't that disproportionately favour wealthier families who can make up the difference? I'm not in favour of vouchers, but if you're going to have them, at least make them fair.

I am not saying that it shouldn't be greater

but for someone without much money they are far more likely to be able to afford 1400 rather than 4000

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:52									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

School Vouchers - a farse solution to a very lage problem.

FUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS THEY'RE A ****ING JOKE!

	27-06-2002 22:53									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I found this page also
which might explain why some teachers prefer private school teaching

http://www.capenet.org/teach.html

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:55									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by orange School Vouchers - a farse solution to a very lage problem. FUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS THEY'RE A ****ING JOKE!

but why should the poor pay for the problems with pblic schools

oh, and provate school get much less money than public schools (but do a better job in many cases)

(BTW I have heard of good public school, I just have not been to one)

Jon Miller

	27-06-2002 22:58									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller why would they be a bad idea in many places school vouchers would give the poor a chance and education which is edcent which had previously only be allowed for the rich this is a great triumph for the proletariat who were being denied decent education from the public institutions (in many cases) Jon Miller

Jon, you're missing the major point: even with the tax credits amounting to 2500$, most low-income families won't be able to afford sending their kids o yuppie schools that cost 10 000$ p.a. This means that the main beneficiaries are going to be those who could already afford to send their kids to private school and who have just been granted a 2500$ rebate.

Once these higher-income parents have been given additional incentive to send their kids to private school, they have no reason to want to pay taxes to support public schools, and school budgets will shrink, hurting the lower-income students who still can't afford to go to school with the yuppies...

	27-06-2002 23:02									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

KH is exactly right. Add to that the problem that public schools will be required to teach the kids that private schools refuse to take (who are usually the ones that require more funding due to behavioural issues or special needs) and you've got a recipe for disaster.

I, for one, despite being a "yuppy" who could afford otherwise, am sending my kids to public school. For all the above reasons and because I don't want my kids to turn out to be private school snots.

	27-06-2002 23:02									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just another loophole that the religious zealots in this country are trying to take advantage of. The good people in California got "under God" taken out of the pledge, as it should be, because religion has no place in school. Likewise, the public's money should not fund private/religious schools. I wouldn't mind so much if the private schools were separated into religious and non-religious. But it seems to me that this country is taking a backwards step by allowing the conservatives to integrate religion into everything. Bush even said, "Our basic ideals and freedoms came from God..." Wrong Dubya, our ideals and freedoms are because of the influence of religion which screwed the world up. Religion once ruled the nations in Europe, it was called the Dark Ages. And today, look at the countries that have established religions. They are some of the worst to live in.

Taking religion out of government won't infringe upon anybody's beliefs or faith. But having religion in government will. I know you conservatives want to be selfish and cry about how it's tradition. Remember, slavery was a tradition that lasted for nearly 100 years in this country. Just because something is old and established doesn't mean its right. The "under God" has only been in the pledge since 1954 for Pete's sake!

BTW: The pledge was written by a prominent Boston Socialist.