29-06-2002 06:56									#271
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And that's one of the many reasons I think the Bible is a crock of horseshit meant for population control rather than any sort of truthful theological meaning.

(no offense...)

	29-06-2002 06:58									#272
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Mercy is an option that is reserved for the one who gives it. It is not a part of justice. We cannot demand mercy if we have broken a law.

	29-06-2002 06:58									#273
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He's also in control of our actions in the sense that he has predestined EXACTLY what we are going to do. There's no way to act against his will. Every fart I make, every bump of my heart is predestined by God.

So what can god demand of _US_, who are for all intents and purposes simply puppets?

	29-06-2002 07:03									#274
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All of what you're saying amounts to the same thing. To be Christian is to believe that you have no control over your life since god has predestined you to take a certain route. "Free Will" even as you present isn't really free will, just the illusion of free will.

	29-06-2002 07:05									#275
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God hasn't predestined us, he simply has granted us free will and also happens to possess midddle knowledge of what we are going to do with that free will.

	29-06-2002 07:09									#276
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I guess you could call it the "illusion" of free will if you want because the end is foreknown but even the actors in a play are judged by their performance. It is probably best if you try and do a good job.

	29-06-2002 07:09									#277
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Which is the exact same thing as having no free will

	29-06-2002 07:14									#278
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See my last post Cy, we have free will, God simply knows what the end result of our free will will be because he is omnipotent.

	29-06-2002 07:32									#279
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EVERYONE, please read my last post! It will end this argument once and for all! I promise.

Last edited by Mr. Nice Guy on 29-06-2002 at 07:47

	29-06-2002 07:46									#280
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Well?

	29-06-2002 07:57									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." --Romans 8:30 What this means: God not only foreknew and predestined (v. 29), He also called believers through the preaching of the gospel message (2 Thess 2:14). This, however, is not the general call of the gospel to all people. If it were we would be forced to universalism, the view that everyone will be saved. Instead, those who are called by God have been foreknown, predestined, and justified. This call refers to the internal work of the Spirit in the hearts of God's elect to bring them to belief in Christ (see Acts 16:14). Being justified means being "declared righteous." Finally, God glorified. Though glorification is in the future, it is stated here in the past tense. Everyone then who was foreknown by God in eternity past has such a certain future that the apostle speaks of their glorification as already accomplished. Sounds like God forsees that everyone can recieve salvation. And those that do, their future is predestined.

Bang! The mystery of God's forknowledge solved by citing scripture. 'Nuff said.

Anyone else have any questions. I have a superb bible here with a complete index and explanations (in dummy language) of the scriptures. I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

	29-06-2002 08:15									#282
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If a man kidnapped a woman and gave her the choice of loving him or being tortured, it would be called a sick act of a psychopath. When someone's diety does the same thing, it's called free choice from a loving god.

	29-06-2002 08:18									#283
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Mindseye, please restate this in the form of a question, please. What exactly do you want to know?

	29-06-2002 08:36									#284
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Why God is such an insecure **** that he needs you to worship him.

	29-06-2002 09:23									#285
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On the purpose of worship:

". . .also [sacrifice] a bull and a ram as peace offerings, to sacrifice before the Lord, and a grain offering mixed with oil, for today the Lord will appear to you."--Leviticus 9:4

Translation:
the Lord will appear to you: The purpose of all worship is to fellowship with God. The sacrifices were not an end in themselves; they allowed the worshipper to meet with God without being destroyed. The Israelites looked forward; we look back to Christ's atonement, by which we are ushered into God's presence.

"And Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the Lord spoke, saying: By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified."--Leviticus 10:3

Translation:
those who come near me: In this context, God referred to the priests, Aaron and his sons. Those who are closest to God--those who minister before him and teach the people--have a greater responsibility to be careful about God's holiness. James stresses this principle in his letter (James 3:1). I must be glorified is still a good principle by which to measure our worship. Anything that does not glorify God is not truly worship and should not be allowed in our worship gatherings.



Make sense?

	29-06-2002 09:52									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Make sense?

Not a lick.

	29-06-2002 09:53									#287
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But a book says it, it must be true...

	29-06-2002 09:59									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not a lick.

Certainly the fellowship part should make sense. God wants his people to come together in fellowship and worship Him. In doing so, they join together in brotherhood, companionship, and friendly association, mutally sharing their experiences, activities, and interests.

	29-06-2002 10:04									#289
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There are plenty of ways other than that, Cloud, in which to bring people together. Especially since it has been conflict of the worship of a particular image of God that has led to some of the world's worst wars and violence.

And then God goes and condemns to Hell all those who don't participate. How very nice.

No, it doesn't make sense, except in a draconian world run by a corrupt religious organization bent on population control (i.e. the Church in the Middle Ages, which invented Eternal Damnation in the first place).

	29-06-2002 10:10									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There are plenty of ways other than that, Cloud, in which to bring people together. Especially since it has been conflict of the worship of a particular image of God that has led to some of the world's worst wars and violence. And then God goes and condemns to Hell all those who don't participate. How very nice. No, it doesn't make sense, except in a draconian world run by a corrupt religious organization bent on population control (i.e. the Church in the Middle Ages, which invented Eternal Damnation in the first place). quote: In regards to understanding the Bible, I think anyone with an open mind can learn to understand it. The bible "speaks to you" as you read it, as no other book does. Anyone with a good heart can learn God's true message. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." God rewards those who seek knowledge with truth.

Perhaps you should try a different approach, Boris.

	29-06-2002 10:12									#291
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Cloud9, you're spouting baseless propaganda that probably makes perfect sense to you since you believe it, but to everyone else you're looking like a f*cking moron.

Cease and desist for your own good.

	29-06-2002 10:14									#292
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I have...it's called agnosticism, and it speaks more truth to me than the Bible ever did. I went the Bible thumper route. Been there, done that, it's a hollow, empty place.

Les Miserables and Great Expectations speak to me far more than the Bible ever will.

	29-06-2002 10:16									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Cloud9, you're spouting baseless propaganda that probably makes perfect sense to you since you believe it, but to everyone else you're looking like a f*cking moron. Cease and desist for your own good.

Just for insulting me, I have reported you!

Four words: DON'T MESS WITH ME!!!

	29-06-2002 10:18									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I have...it's called agnosticism, and it speaks more truth to me than the Bible ever did. I went the Bible thumper route. Been there, done that, it's a hollow, empty place. Les Miserables and Great Expectations speak to me far more than the Bible ever will.

Ah well, that's your decision. You can live with the consequences.

	29-06-2002 10:19									#295
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You mean, being a reasonable, intelligent person? Oh, the horror!!!

	29-06-2002 10:21									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Just for insulting me, I have reported you! Four words: DON'T MESS WITH ME!!!

I'm shaking in my boots, a Linux-using bible-thumper is threatening me.

I didn't break any of the site rules, and you're wasting a mod's time.

You gotta love it when people go on power kicks in situations where they have no power.

	29-06-2002 10:24									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm shaking in my boots, a Linux-using bible-thumper is threatening me. I didn't break any of the site rules, and you're wasting a mod's time. You gotta love it when people go on power kicks in situations where they have no power.

Didn't break any rules, eh? You insulted me! That sounds like breaking the rules to me. We will see what the mods have to say about this. . .

	29-06-2002 10:24									#298
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God will smite you any second now for messing with him, Asher.

	29-06-2002 10:25									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 Didn't break any rules, eh? You insulted me! That sounds like breaking the rules to me. We will see what the mods have to say about this. . .

Insulting isn't against the rules.

But you know what is? Threats. Your "DON'T MESS WITH ME" stuff is scaring me, seeing as you're such a badass. I'm going to report you eight times to the mods.

	29-06-2002 10:27									#300
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Hey, be nice Ashie!