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Apocalypse
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Lexington, VA: College - Houston, TX: Home
Aug 2005
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Why? Remember that there wasn't the standard of scholarship then there is today.
The times when Tacitus is right is when his writing is supported by other historical accounts and documentary evidence. The times when he is wrong are when he relies on rumor, hearsay and popular legend. His recounting of Christ is the latter.
I'm not personally saying Jesus didn't exist. I'm only pointing out that there is no documentary evidence he did. So basing Faith on some sort of supposed factual reasoning is, in fact, not reasoned. Faith, in and of itself, is irrational. That doesn't make it wrong, it's just something that is beyond the scope of reason.
Keep your Faith, by all means. But we should also keep historical fact separate from religious legends. |
There wasn't a high standard, but people still called bs on other people.
And once again, I have no Christian faith. I just believe the there was some guy named Jesus.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:20
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Well put Lincoln, I tend to agree with Paik too. I believe that those who have not been ministered to (like those in North America during the middle ages for example) , or those who have been ministered to, but do not find sufficient reason to believe, can still be saved by God's general revelation to that person.
On the question of whether a Christian is saved by faith or deeds. There is no reason to think that one can be saved by one and not by the other. They are not mutually exclusive as some seem to believe, on the contrary, they go hand in hand. If you possess a strong level of faith, and believe that God exists with all of your heart, it is inevitable that you will generally committ good deeds. People who like to think of themselves as christian and do nothing but break the lord's commandments and generally make the world a bad place to live in can't possibly possess a very high level of faith, if any at all. If they believed strongly in God why would they continue to commit grievous sins and fail to repent? Christians can't have faith without good deeds, or vice versa.
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Thucydides
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Screw you guys, I'm going home.
Jan 1970
time: 05:20
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hmm, I think what the the original debate boils down to(not the later one involving a Christian God or Jesus' existence), is having two systems of classification of Good vs. Evil. On one hand you have the secular humanist version which is usually on the lines of the golden rule, which not so surprisingly is also in the Bible (not so surprising since almost every system of morality tends to start along these lines).
So at some point both systems of morality have something in common. Both ideas share the idea of do until others as you would like have done to you. But from there they deverge.
On one hand you have a system of morality remaining relatively static over it's history (changes have occured, but much slower then they have for they're conterpart, and not all for the better). The other system of morality is based a system of facts and the categorization of these facts into scientific theories as it's cornerstone. As our knowledge of the world and who we are changes, so do this system of morality which is now detached almost completely from religious doctrine.
So the question really boils down to what morality is. Has Good vs. Evil remained unchanged over the past milennium and actually written down in a book 2000 years ago, or is it something rather to be discovered and improved upon, so that as time goes on we can find even more effective ways to living in harmony together.
After all, I think that is the ultimate goal of the golden rule and morality in general. Morality is really about changing an individual actions in a way so that not only can he be happy and live a full life as he sees fit, but also that his actions maximize the ability of all sentient beings to do likewise.
Last edited by Thucydides on 28-06-2002 at 20:15
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Jon Miller
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I disagree
Jon Miller
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Mr. Nice Guy
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"I'm gonna speak softly, but carry a BIG STICK!!!"
Mar 2002
time: 23:20
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So the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heal."
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase you pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."
To Adam he said, "Because you have listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, you must not eat of it. Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." --Genesis 3:14-17
This is the price for sin.
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28-06-2002 19:18
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