28-06-2002 21:34									#1
	SAT no longer standardized Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There will be a new SAT in 2005. Here are the new features:

quote: The former SAT Verbal Exam will become the SAT Critical Reading Exam. This test will no longer include analogies. Instead, short reading sections will be added to existing long reading passages. A new section called the SAT Writing Exam will be added. This section will contain multiple-choice grammar questions as well as a written essay. The SAT Math Exam will be expanded to cover three years of high school math. Instead of just covering concepts from Geometry and Algebra I, the new SAT Math Exam will contain concepts from Geometry, Algebra I and Algebra II.

The new Critical reading is fine. I believe this will improve the test. The upgraded math section perpetuates the false idea that everyone needs to know advanced math. Basic algebra and geometry is good, but most people have no need for algebra II.

The new Writing section is what I really have a problem with. First, one reason it was added to give females an even larger advantage in getting into college. Second, it discriminates against people with bad handwriting. People with legible, but still below average handwriting will get penalized. This isn't that bad, except when combined with my third reason for disliking the new writing part. Different people will be reading these essays. This prevents there from being a real standard. It allows for the chance that people with great essays will get a lower score than those with just good essays. The same problems will arise that have plagued the AP tests. The people grading these essays are real humans with major flaws. They get lazy. Typically, ones graded later in the day get higher grades. In an attempt to prevent this, there will be other graders double checking essays randomly, but this still allows for large amounts of error.

Finally, this ending of standarization really hurts. The United States needs to be working toward complete standardization of education. This is the only way to really fight discrimination and give almost everyone a fair chance.

	28-06-2002 21:36									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

UK doesn't even have standardised education and it's a lot smaller than the US.

	28-06-2002 21:37									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: The new Writing section is what I really have a problem with. First, one reason it was added to give females an even larger advantage in getting into college.

Huh? Only girls can write?

-Arrian

	28-06-2002 21:39									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No, but girls tend to write better than boys, at least at that age.

	28-06-2002 21:39									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by MikeH UK doesn't even have standardised education and it's a lot smaller than the US.

The US being larger works with the argument more standardization is needed. You cannot let people fall through the cracks.

	28-06-2002 21:40									#6
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Huh? Only girls can write?

Girls typically have a better handle on the subject. A writting (basically grammer) section was added to the PSAT so more females would get the scholarship.

	28-06-2002 21:49									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

[quote]The upgraded math section perpetuates the false idea that everyone needs to know advanced math.[/qiote]

Since When is algebra II advanced math? Anyway, the SAT is a test designed to evaluate your ability to work at a college level of study. Yet a fairly large porportion of degrees, especially in the fields of science and engineering, require advanced math, usually some 2 years of Calculus at least. And your success in taking Calculus can be predicted based off of your knowledge of Algebra. Even if you decide to go liberal arts, your still probably going to be required to a math class or two, which you have to pass to graduate.

In other words, while the ability to do advanced math isn't as important as the ability to comprehend and write in english, it's still ranks up there as an important indicator of success in an university enviroment.

	28-06-2002 21:54									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Algebra II is the highest or second highest math many people take. That is why I called it advanced. If people want to show that they are good in math, they can take the Math SAT and AP Calculus.

	28-06-2002 21:57									#9
	Put an end to popups!

The key thing is how well it correlates to academic success. Is an acheivement test better correlated than an aptitude test? SAT company has this info since they administer a wide variety of tests and do research on the correlations. You can bet that these new sections will use material moved over from their acheivement tests. On a more subtle level, towhat extent is predictive impact of an acheivement test cocorelated with grades. One of the good things about the current SAT is that by combining it with grades, one gets better predictive power than by suing grades alone. Will the SAT be a less useful "second" factor in the regression in its new form?

	28-06-2002 22:02									#10
	Remove this text

most colleges nowadays require the writing SAT II which is essentially what they're adding to the existing SAT... there is no way a person can be 100% objective... i wrote a very good essay for that test, but it was pretty strongly anti-US (this was several months after sept. 11) and i got a score lower than i should have gotten

i say, the more math you need to know for the SATs the better, so you can just get tutored out of the wazoo to raise your score, but instead you'd need to learn some math

	28-06-2002 22:03									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The SAT math probably wasn't showing enough gradation among test takers. When I took it, it was easy. I knew the answer to every question. Knowing the answer to every question is a bad thing, because it is not sensitive to those who were better than me at math and who should therefore rightly receive higher scores.

The written portion will introduce bias, but the SAT is designed to show colleges how well a student will do in the first year of college. In many/most schools the first year of college is determined a lot by writing ability (and legibility--gotta love those bluebooks), so the test is at least valid, if not fair.

	28-06-2002 22:07									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dan, did you get a perfect score on the math? Still, a large portion don't. Thus, there is no need to update the math.

	28-06-2002 22:15									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

"Dan, did you get a perfect score on the math?"

No, musta missed two, but I knew the answer to every question. Nowadays, this would give you a perfect score (rightly so), but it used to not.

As it turns out, it was a good predictor on how I would do on the first Calc test in college--97%. Based on this success, I went to three classes total, hit the pub, and collected my A-.

	28-06-2002 22:17									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

See, it still worked out for you, someone who was good in math. Why should people who don't care about math be bothered with remembering Algebra II?

	28-06-2002 22:20									#15
	Tired of ads?

I get your point, but if there was a lack of sensitivity at the high end, there is probably lack of sensitivity in the middle ranges. This is probably meant to help correct that.

	28-06-2002 22:25									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Still, the math thing doesn't bother me as much of the writing. There is too much of a chance for someone to get screwed over in all times he or she takes the SAT.

	28-06-2002 23:28									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yah. All it takes are 3-4 questions on an Algebra II level. People who don't know the course can miss 'em and if they do well elsewhere, will still do fine (can easily get a 650+, certainly). But I agree with DanS, for those who have taken some REAL advanced math, which is getting more and more common these days (I've heard of HS freshman taking Calc I!), the SAT is beyond super-easy for Math.

I wonder why they're getting rid of analogies though. They are an excellent measure of vocabulary, and were always the hardest and my favorite part of the Writing test.

And I can't be in favor of the Writing section either. Take the freakin' SATII writing, lots of colleges want it anyway. That way the SAT itself isn't polluted.

	28-06-2002 23:31									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

One of the biggest effects these revisions will have has not yet been mentioned. Reading now counts for 800 points on the test, Math counts for 800 points, and writing counts for another 800 points for a total possible score of 2400. This means that English skills now count for twice as much as Math skills. It is possible that colleges could give the math portion more weight to make up for this, however this seems unlikely due to the colleges' belief in writing being very important and that nobody has suggested such an approach so far. This will of course help women since they tend to be better at English skills, but I think this is unfair to people who score better with math(even though they will be helped with the addition of Algebra II)

I also think a writing test would be very problematic. The thing is you cannot test someone's writing skills in 50-60 minutes. Good writing should be a slow process, usually requiring revisions and proofreading. Writing is also generally done on topics which the writer is familiar with or has studied. The writing that you do for the SAT is about very vauge topics- one example topic used by a College board official was: "Humankind has had plenty of great mistakes, but also many great moments. I think one of the great moments was _________"- and you wouldn't know the topic beforehand, you are just supposed to write about one of humanity's great moments from the time you read the essay question. This type of writing under pressure is completely different from normal writing.

What is worse is that this type of writing can also be coached for rather easily, and appropriately the test prep companies are expecting to making tons of money due to this change. ETS essays are graded by means of a rubric, and test-prep people can help you fit the rubric's demand. While it is hard for a test prep course to make you a better writer all of a sudden, in can make you a lot better at writing under pressure to fufill the specific requirements of a rubric to inflate your scores. And of course, the wealthier you are, the better test-prep you can afford. Plus, since the test is no long objective, the more times you take it(wealthier people usually take it more times as they can afford it), the better the chance of getting the reader who grades easy.

I also don't like the addition of Algebra II to the exam. Although many on this board have complained that Algebra I makes it too easy, the reality is that the vast majority of test takers do not get abover 700, so there is sufficent gradation. By testing basic math but having harder versions of those questions aptitude can be better tested. Also, many students who aren't as advanced don't take Algebra II until their senior year. because the SAT is usually taken Junior year or the very beginning of senior year, those students who are already on the math track to take Algebra II senior year are going to be at a severe disadvantage.

Removing analogies is also not a good idea IMO, because analogies are a good way of testing vocabulary, as well as testing a studen't ability to understand the English language and language in general.

	28-06-2002 23:32									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There have been many complaints about the analogies. I've been able to get pretty good with them, but I can understand people's problem with them.

	28-06-2002 23:39									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Excellent first step!

But we should push for raising the difficulty of the test further. Not allow smarter kids to show off, but to force our school systems into raise their standards.

	28-06-2002 23:41									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Excellent first step! But we should push for raising the difficulty of the test further. Not allow smarter kids to show off, but to force our school systems into raise their standards.

This won't raise standards. Like I said, it removes standardization. It screws too many people over.

	28-06-2002 23:43									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Only because the test is so crappy. Same goes for most other standardized tests.

	28-06-2002 23:46									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The test was fine. It accomplishes the job. You need a way to compare people on a level playing field. A person's GPA and class rank can very greatly depending on the school. It would be wrong to use those alone to judge people.

	28-06-2002 23:47									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No, I'm not saying we should do away with standardized tests, but that we should fix the ones we have by drastically increasing the difficulty of them.

	28-06-2002 23:49									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Many of our standardized tests have helped to dumb down school curriculums.

	28-06-2002 23:51									#26
	Suffering from ads?

Drastically increasing the difficulty would mean many more people would get really low scores. I don't believe these test dumbed down cirriculums. If you want to make the test harder, just make the questions harder. Don't add in horrible things like writing.

	28-06-2002 23:58									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Drastically increasing the difficulty would mean many more people would get really low scores.

Yep. Which doesn't hurt the students because the test is standardized. It only provides incentives for teachers and administrators to fix our education system.

quote: I don't believe these test dumbed down cirriculums.

They forced teachers to focus on simplistic material, since school funding is based upon standardized tests.

quote: Don't add in horrible things like writing.

I had the math part in mind... I don't like the writing part either.

	29-06-2002 00:13									#28
	Put an end to popups!

The SAT isn't meant to set the guidleines for school's curriculum, Ramo. The SAT is merely meant to test a student's aptitude. for testing of more advanced subjects, you have the AP exams and the SAT IIs. And because college administrators do like to see students take the hardest classes available, people taking AP classes is becoming more common and so people take harder classes that way.

	29-06-2002 00:48									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Algebra II is the highest or second highest math many people take. That is why I called it advanced. If people want to show that they are good in math, they can take the Math SAT and AP Calculus.

-Both ridiculously easy tests. It was about damn time they put in some decent math into the SAT.

I can't say I agree with the writing section as it can be entirely too subjective.

	29-06-2002 00:53									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: The SAT isn't meant to set the guidleines for school's curriculum, Ramo. The SAT is merely meant to test a student's aptitude. for testing of more advanced subjects, you have the AP exams and the SAT IIs. And because college administrators do like to see students take the hardest classes available, people taking AP classes is becoming more common and so people take harder classes that way.

-Yes, but what if your school doesn't offer that many APs? Having AP tests cover for the failures of the SAT doesn't work that well, because people like me who had the opportunity to take up to 12 AP classes (I preffered to take German V and Multivariable over 2 easier APs) will be at a definite advantage over people whose schools offered say 2-3 AP classes.