29-06-2002 02:31									#31
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Shi Huangdi: Exactly.

Victor Galis: The problem with the APs can be fixed with even more standardization. Everyone should be provided the same opportunity to take any course. If the school does not provide a course, then the student should be provided with a school that does.

	29-06-2002 02:33									#32
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Umm... I seriously want you to think about that last statement.

	29-06-2002 02:35									#33
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Galis and Ramo, you miss the key issue with the SAT. It is not a pat on the head for smart little AP kids (like you). The purpose is to serve as a predictive estimator for college performance. And more specifically to do what Apocolypse said. (An independent additional differentiator after grades.) Look into the field. Study the regressions and statistical surveys. Quite a bit is available on the College Board website. You might learn something...too! I have not been impressed by either of you in your understanding of multi-factor regressions, Design of Experiments (DOE), surveying methodologies, etc.

Last edited by TCO on 29-06-2002 at 02:41

	29-06-2002 02:39									#34
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quote: Galis and Ramo, you miss the key issue with the SAT. It is not a pat on the head for smart little AP kids. The purpose is to serve as a predictive estimator for college performance.

-The problem is that it doesn't differentiate adequately around the top end, and being a poor test taker can be the difference between a 1500 and a 1350.

	29-06-2002 02:48									#35
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Do you have some proof of your statement? How flawed is it in that range? (I've done a fair amount of interviewing of 1350 and 1500 type applicants. I noticed a real difference between the 1350 group and the 1500 group.) I would agree that from about 1500 to 1600 it has some issues. At the very high ranges of course there are issues since performance is capped at 1600 of course. But as I said before, the test is designed for the general population not gving little Victor Galis a pat on the head or telling him whether he is MIT material or is more of a YellowJacket at heart.

I doubt the variability of test scores for people at 1350 is much different than that of people at 1000, from test to test. (Feel free to prove me wrong--I'm very eager for you both to start thinking more scientifically in this area.)

Last edited by TCO on 29-06-2002 at 02:54

	29-06-2002 02:54									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis Umm... I seriously want you to think about that last statement.

I have. I'm part socialist, part libertarian. Education and child care is my socialist side. Everyone should be provided with an equal opportunity until they decide to end their education.

	29-06-2002 03:12									#37
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Shi's point is very important. English will now count 2x as much as math. Writing is very subjective and if the person doesn't like what you say, even though you might have written a masterpiece, you can bet that they'll take off for it.

People with bad handwriting are unneccessarly impaired as well.

Keep only the ovals!

	29-06-2002 03:17									#38
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quote: I have. I'm part socialist, part libertarian. Education and child care is my socialist side. Everyone should be provided with an equal opportunity until they decide to end their education.

-No, I meant, the feasibility. For you to suggest that EVERY person should be allowed the same opportunity, you are implying that if Bubba from Tifton, GA really wants to take AP Art History he should be given the chance. A noble idea, but far too expensive. On the other hand I had my pick of just about every AP class, except AP European History

Down with writing!

	29-06-2002 03:23									#39
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It may not seem feasible, but something major must be done to give people a more equal chance in life.

	29-06-2002 03:25									#40
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It's rather difficult to envision how you would give people in South Georgia (where schools are dozens of miles apart) a chance to take even close to the same difficulty of classes that we can get in DeKalb County.

	29-06-2002 03:30									#41
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It is difficult. I would explain how it should be done in detail, but that would definitely lead to a threadjack. Though I'd really like the amount of posts that would produce (this is already the most successful thread I've ever created at ACS), I'd rather stay remotely on topic.

	29-06-2002 04:17									#42
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"Yes, but what if your school doesn't offer that many APs? Having AP tests cover for the failures of the SAT doesn't work that well, because people like me who had the opportunity to take up to 12 AP classes"

This isn't having AP test covering for the failures of the SAT. Testing knowledge of advanced subjects is not something the SAT is designed to do. If a school has a lacking of AP classes, they can either do an independent study for the AP or take more SAT II's.

"If the school does not provide a course, then the student should be provided with a school that does."

A more practical solution might be to provide the courses online.

"(I've done a fair amount of interviewing of 1350 and 1500 type applicants. I noticed a real difference between the 1350 group and the 1500 group.) "

Employers actually look at the SAT!? What exactly are you hiring for?


Excellent points, Imran.

	29-06-2002 04:30									#43
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quote: It is not a pat on the head for smart little AP kids (like you).

I agree. In fact, that's exactly what I wrote.

quote: The purpose is to serve as a predictive estimator for college performance.

I see that as one of the purposes. The other purpose, IMO, is to fix our school system.

It may not be the "official" purpose, but it's a damn good way to get the job done.

quote: The SAT isn't meant to set the guidleines for school's curriculum, Ramo.

It does, though.

However, if we fix the test, it would serve as a pressure for reform of our school system.

quote: And because college administrators do like to see students take the hardest classes available, people taking AP classes is becoming more common and so people take harder classes that way.

BTW, the high school I went to freshman year didn't have AP tests (at least I don't recall it having any).

	29-06-2002 04:59									#44
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quote: However, if we fix the test, it would serve as a pressure for reform of our school system.

Um... that's not the point, and shouldn't be the point of the SAT. Or are you comfortable with the idea that we should endorse that a private company sets every school's ciriculum? Guess you aren't as opposed to vouchers as you might think .

	29-06-2002 05:15									#45
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quote: Or are you comfortable with the idea that we should endorse that a private company sets every school's ciriculum?

They do already. What difference does admitting it make?

After we admit it, we can take advantage of the fact.

quote: Guess you aren't as opposed to vouchers as you might think .

I'm not, as long as the poor have a fair shot. Like I said in the other thread, I'd like a program along the lines of FAFSA during high school and perhaps earlier.

	29-06-2002 05:58									#46
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quote: They do already. What difference does admitting it make?

Well, at lot. It basically means the government accepts that a private company would be better in educating our kids than the government.

Which, btw, I'm not opposed to, just wondered if you were .

	29-06-2002 07:21									#47
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"It does, though."

No, the SAT I does not set the curriculum, at least at my school. In my school we learned subjects either then English and Math. We also studied English and Math above the level they are put on the SAT. So the SAT I does not determine the student's curriculum. It is even possible if students did not like the SAT for them to avoid it altogether and take the ACT. Moreover, it is not the job of the college board to be setting the curriculum in this country.

	29-06-2002 07:25									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Employers actually look at the SAT!? What exactly are you hiring for?

Management consultants.

	29-06-2002 07:30									#49
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And how important is an applicant's SAT score to you in hiring an applicant? What about college grades?

	29-06-2002 07:31									#50
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Imran, you make a very elementary mistake of linking the SAT to HS acheivement. That is not what it is. The NY state HS tests (can't remember the name) are HS acheivement tests.

SAT is more of an aptitude test than an acheivement test. The important thing about it is its predictive power. How well you do in college correlates with how well you do on the test. It measures brains as well as (arguably more than) experience.

	29-06-2002 07:36									#51
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Ramo, the SAT has had little affect on my school's cirriculum. We've barely even touched on SAT related things.

	29-06-2002 08:01									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi And how important is an applicant's SAT score to you in hiring an applicant? What about college grades?

Very useful in deciding what applicants to interview. About equal with college grades (for college grads).* For more experienced hires, resume is also important.

After applicants enter the interviewing process, almost all of the decision is based on case performance. (Grades, resume, scores no longer considered.)

*With the proviso that you look at what major they had. A 3.5 in EE is more impressive than a 3.5 in Poly Sci. Of course if somebody has a 4.0 or near in and "easy" major, you can't really slam since some top students just take what they enjoy...but you will check them a little tougher in interviews to see what they're made of.

	29-06-2002 08:05									#53
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I might add that the customers for this are not the students, even though they are the ones paying the testing fees. Rather, it is the universities, who dictate what is asked.

	29-06-2002 08:11									#54
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Interesting point...

	30-06-2002 06:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by GP Very useful in deciding what applicants to interview. About equal with college grades (for college grads).* For more experienced hires, resume is also important. After applicants enter the interviewing process, almost all of the decision is based on case performance. (Grades, resume, scores no longer considered.) *With the proviso that you look at what major they had. A 3.5 in EE is more impressive than a 3.5 in Poly Sci. Of course if somebody has a 4.0 or near in and "easy" major, you can't really slam since some top students just take what they enjoy...but you will check them a little tougher in interviews to see what they're made of.

What about double majors, GP? Say Imran were to apply for a job with you, would his poli sci/econ double major help him get selected for an interview?

	30-06-2002 06:57									#56
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The addition of econ would make him stronger. (It's not a digital thing either. If you are a genius who just happens to love poly sci...you would still get an interview.)

	30-06-2002 08:27									#57
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quote: It basically means the government accepts that a private company would be better in educating our kids than the government.

How so?

quote: So the SAT I does not determine the student's curriculum.

It doesn't determine the curriculum, but significantly affects it. Part of high school is preparing students for college, and a significant part of that is preparing them to do well on the SATs. Do you seriously believe school and teacher curriculums won't change due to this change in the SAT?

Of course, statewide standardized tests generally have much more significant effects than the SATs.

quote: We also studied English and Math above the level they are put on the SAT.

Unfortunately, that's not the norm. Most people don't far past taking geometry by their junior year.

quote: Moreover, it is not the job of the college board to be setting the curriculum in this country.

What's your point?

There is no widely-used public federal standardized test achievement/apptitude test. And pressuring College Board into changing the SATs would be a helluva lot easier than pressuring state gov't's into changing their tests.

We could either take advantage of the fact that the college board affects school curriculums and teacher agendas or pretend it doesn't have any impact whatsoever.

quote: We've barely even touched on SAT related things.

I find that very hard to believe.

	30-06-2002 08:34									#58
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The SAT is archaic.

Provinces here do standardized finals for 12th grade subjects. Univerisities then look at those diploma exam marks (what they're called) specifically at each subject at hand (bio, chem, physics, math, english, social studies, etc).

Our English and Social Studies exams both required essays on top of multiple choice exams. But we're allowed to type them on the computers. They go around and install special versions of Office with the spellchecker/grammarchecker disabled, among other things, and let us type it up and submit it electronically and on paper. That's what I did.

The exams are all grouped together and sent to one central location where teachers all meet to mark them. Each student is assigned a special number for the tests that the teachers don't know, so it's anonymous. And 3 teachers mark the test, the average is taken. If you're not happy with the mark you and get it remarked for a fee.

Beats the hell out of the SAT.

	30-06-2002 08:36									#59
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If you want to go to grad school you'll probably have to take the older brother of the SATs in senior year, Asher...

	30-06-2002 08:37									#60
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Grad school is years away.