30-06-2002 08:41									#61
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well, sucks for my brother, he'll have to take the new one.

i'm glad i got through it. three hours of pure boredom... and honestly, the SAT isn't really that great of a test. for a lot of people who apply for the more expensive institutions, the SAT score starts to mean less and less-- the elite schools, for instance, don't really count the SAT for much in their decisions for accepting students.

low-end and high-end schools don't care. it's the overburdened large, state, mid-level schools that end up relying on them the most.

Last edited by Q Cubed on 30-06-2002 at 08:53

	30-06-2002 09:44									#62
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Ramo, when I went to HS (South Lakes High School 1980-84) we barely touched on SAT related stuff.

One more data point...

	30-06-2002 09:58									#63
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I was born in 1980...

	30-06-2002 10:43									#64
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"Do you seriously believe school and teacher curriculums won't change due to this change in the SAT?"

It depends on how much is done with Algebra II. If enough of it is on there, it may lead to more people taking Algebra II when they aren't ready to take it. But since almost everyone takes Algebra II anyway it won't make too much of a difference.

"Of course, statewide standardized tests generally have much more significant effects than the SATs'

Correct, for instance Virginia's standards of learning tests.

"Unfortunately, that's not the norm. Most people don't far past taking geometry by their junior year."



You're joking, right? At my school I'd sat at least 97% of the people take Algebra II at least by their senior year. I hope my school more resembles the norm then yours....

"And pressuring College Board into changing the SATs would be a helluva lot easier than pressuring state gov't's into changing their tests."

I doubt it. The College Board is a non-profit private orginization that is there to serve the universities, so pressuring it won't be easy. If there is to be change, it'd have to come from the universities. And the universities have done alot in speeding up curriculums- you'll have a hard time getting into a good school if geometry was your highest level math course. Also, more students are taking AP tests then ever before because AP classes help you get into college.

In any case, Ramo, you can cause significant change in only two subject with the SAT, those being English and Math. It would do nothing for history, science, or foreign languages.

"the elite schools, for instance, don't really count the SAT for much in their decisions for accepting students.

low-end and high-end schools don't care. it's the overburdened large, state, mid-level schools that end up relying on them the most."

Yes, they do. You'll have a lot easier time getting into a top school with a 1600 then with with a 1350. And in any case those large state unis you mention are where most people go.

	30-06-2002 14:42									#65
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quote: It depends on how much is done with Algebra II. If enough of it is on there, it may lead to more people taking Algebra II when they aren't ready to take it. But since almost everyone takes Algebra II anyway it won't make too much of a difference.

-If you're not ready to take Algebra II by the time you're a junior, you have no business going to a good college anyway.

quote: You're joking, right? At my school I'd sat at least 97% of the people take Algebra II at least by their senior year. I hope my school more resembles the norm then yours....

-I took Algebra II around late 9th grade/first semester of 10th grade, then moved into Precalculus in 10th grade. I'm not really sure what the norm is at our school, but there are a good deal of students who take AP Calc. as juniors.

quote: In any case, Ramo, you can cause significant change in only two subject with the SAT, those being English and Math. It would do nothing for history, science, or foreign languages.

-That's what SAT IIs are there for.

quote: Yes, they do. You'll have a lot easier time getting into a top school with a 1600 then with with a 1350. And in any case those large state unis you mention are where most people go.

-True, but the 1600 doesn't guarantee you admittance, it just gets them to look at you.

	30-06-2002 19:08									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -True, but the 1600 doesn't guarantee you admittance, it just gets them to look at you.

so....?

	30-06-2002 19:24									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I find that very hard to believe.

I'll go over the exact way my school "prepared" me for the SAT.

In English, we take vocabulary quizzes. These aren't just for the SAT though. I have spent about 7 hours total taking these during my first three years in high school. I haven't studied for these for more than another 5 hours (which is pretty typical at my school). That is no more than 12 hours spent on studing for the English part of the SAT.

In Math, we just followed the book the first two years. In my Junior year, we also spent three days taking pratice SAT math sections. We spent no more than 2 hours on this.

Because of this, preparing for the SAT was a very insignificant part of my education in school.

	30-06-2002 23:17									#68
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I don't see how SAT tests somebody's aptitude. As far as I can see, all that stuff is knowledge, not some sort of inclination, suitability, or talent.

	30-06-2002 23:27									#69
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"

-If you're not ready to take Algebra II by the time you're a junior, you have no business going to a good college anyway."

Right, and whether Algebra II is on the SAT or not, you'll still have a hard time getting into a good college without taking Algebra II.

"I'm not really sure what the norm is at our school, but there are a good deal of students who take AP Calc. as juniors."

That's nice for them, but how does this relate to the subject of how adding Algebra II will change school curriculums.

"

-That's what SAT IIs are there for."

Exactly, the SAT IIs are meant for that. And because the SAT I doesn't cover those subjects, you coulnd't use it to change the overall HS curriculum.

"In English, we take vocabulary quizzes. These aren't just for the SAT though. I have spent about 7 hours total taking these during my first three years in high school. I haven't studied for these for more than another 5 hours (which is pretty typical at my school). That is no more than 12 hours spent on studing for the English part of the SAT.

In Math, we just followed the book the first two years. In my Junior year, we also spent three days taking pratice SAT math sections. We spent no more than 2 hours on this.'

Yes, we had pretty much the same thing here, except we spent maybe a week in maybe both math and English prepping for the SAT. Of course, Ramo is in Texas, and who knows what they do down there.....

	30-06-2002 23:59									#70
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	30-06-2002 23:59									#71
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quote: It depends on how much is done with Algebra II. If enough of it is on there, it may lead to more people taking Algebra II when they aren't ready to take it. But since almost everyone takes Algebra II anyway it won't make too much of a difference.

Not everyone takes Algebra II by their junior year. I've known many people who haven't taken it till their senior year. Besides, I said that it was a first step.

If, for instance, precal or calculus were added to the SAT, do you doubt school curriculums would change?

quote: At my school I'd sat at least 97% of the people take Algebra II at least by their senior year.

The SAT is taken during the junior year. Many people do not take Algebra II by their junior year.

quote: The College Board is a non-profit private orginization that is there to serve the universities, so pressuring it won't be easy.

Much easier than pressuring every single state legislature.

quote: And the universities have done alot in speeding up curriculums- you'll have a hard time getting into a good school if geometry was your highest level math course.

There are no serious barriers to college if you take algebra II senior year.

quote: In Math, we just followed the book the first two years. In my Junior year, we also spent three days taking pratice SAT math sections. We spent no more than 2 hours on this.

Taking practice SAT tests is not the only way to prepare students for the math part of the SAT. The student does need to be relatively knowledgable in algebra and geometry.

quote: Ramo, when I went to HS (South Lakes High School 1980-84) we barely touched on SAT related stuff.

I was born in 1984.

quote: In English, we take vocabulary quizzes. These aren't just for the SAT though. I have spent about 7 hours total taking these during my first three years in high school. I haven't studied for these for more than another 5 hours (which is pretty typical at my school). That is no more than 12 hours spent on studing for the English part of the SAT.

I remember doing SAT prep type stuff sophomore year in English...

	01-07-2002 01:17									#72
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quote: so....?

-The point was that those schools don't rely too heavily on the SAT.

quote: I don't see how SAT tests somebody's aptitude. As far as I can see, all that stuff is knowledge, not some sort of inclination, suitability, or talent.

-Yes, but the math is very basic knowledge that everyone should have.

quote: Right, and whether Algebra II is on the SAT or not, you'll still have a hard time getting into a good college without taking Algebra II.

-I don't even know if Tech offers a math class below Calc I, and just about everyone has to take Calc I and Calc II to graduate.

quote: If, for instance, precal or calculus were added to the SAT, do you doubt school curriculums would change?

-No, but they'd change for the better

quote: The SAT is taken during the junior year. Many people do not take Algebra II by their junior year.

-By some people. You don't have to take it before the fall of your senior year, which means you could take it right at the end of your junior year. (which is when I took my SAT IIs).

quote: There are no serious barriers to college if you take algebra II senior year.

-Au contraire. You are either going to a school that is doing a **** job of preparing you, or you are stupid, both of which I would consider serious barriers.

	01-07-2002 01:23									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Taking practice SAT tests is not the only way to prepare students for the math part of the SAT. The student does need to be relatively knowledgable in algebra and geometry.

That is all we did aside from study the book though. That is the only way it affected my cirriculum.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo I was born in 1984.

As was I.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo I remember doing SAT prep type stuff sophomore year in English...

Not every school is the same.

	01-07-2002 01:26									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -The point was that those schools don't rely too heavily on the SAT.

It is a significant factor. Try applying to Hravard with a 1350 or with a 1600. Students know that it is significant. I had lousy HS grades but still had a shot at the top schools because of a high SAT. GOt into Cornell and Duke. Which I never would have purely on grades.

	01-07-2002 01:31									#75
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quote: That is all we did aside from study the book though. That is the only way it affected my cirriculum.

-It could also have affected the selection of the book, although given the book selection process, any sort of purpose when picking the book is unlikely.

quote: I had lousy HS grades but still had a shot at the top schools because of a high SAT. GOt into Cornell and Duke. Which I never would have purely on grades.

-Maybe, but nowadays it depends a lot more on how well you can BS on your essay. I sent MIT the same one I sent Tech (and I thought it was crap), and didn't get in. I wrote another crap essay for Stanford, and didn't get in. I wrote my best essay for Berkeley and got in there. I could just feel that that essay was better. The others were carefully crafted BS, while the Berkeley one just flowed freely without so much BS on a topic I very much enjoyed... I only wish I had completed the Berkeley application before the MIT one, because then I would have sent MIT my Berkeley essay... not that it matters, since I would still have ended up at Tech anyway (cheap, defective falling stock prices).

	01-07-2002 01:33									#76
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Oh yes, I also had almost no volunteer/work experience to list on my application and my activities were largely academic (I don't think they liked that).

	01-07-2002 01:34									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -It could also have affected the selection of the book, although given the book selection process, any sort of purpose when picking the book is unlikely.

I forget the exact formula my school uses when selecting books, but SAT didn't factor in.

	01-07-2002 01:37									#78
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essays have some importance but I suspect that they function as more of a hurdle. If you have a clear, thoughtful essay (versus BS about being the next coming of Leonardo Da Vinci) than they will give you the upcheck on the essay. But you still need to meet the bar on grades, scores. of course, for harvard, MIT, Stanford its a crapshoot sicne those places are so choosey.

I doubt the game has changed so much since I went to school.

	01-07-2002 01:44									#79
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My best college essay was for Cornell. They asked you to address a social problem. I picked a windy road near where I lived (Lawyer's Road) which needed an upgrade. Title: "Fix the Deathtrap". Did some research on it and everything. Was prettyn fun. I heard that they thought it was a lot better than all the people who blathered on about solving world hunger. Goes to Owen Johnson's famous words of advice for new writers, "write about what you know".

Took that advice to heart when I applied for an NDSEG fellowship and consulting companies. Wrote my essays in that manner and they really stood out. (Plus I had a lot more real life things to draw on than younger candidates.)

	01-07-2002 01:44									#80
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quote: essays have some importance but I suspect that they function as more of a hurdle. If you have a clear, thoughtful essay (versus BS about being the next coming of Leonardo Da Vinci) than they will give you the upcheck on the essay. But you still need to meet the bar on grades, scores. of course, for harvard, MIT, Stanford its a crapshoot sicne those places are so choosey. I doubt the game has changed so much since I went to school.

-Trust me... SAT scores and grades could not help me enough. I was salutatorian (of the magnet program) at my school and had a 1540 (the only time I took the SAT) and a pair of 800s (Math II and Physics) and a 670 (Writing) on SAT IIs. I'm telling you, a bad essay, and lack of certain activities they currently seem to favor killed me. Heck, even my MIT interview went well. (Unlike the one for President's Scholarship at Tech.)

	01-07-2002 01:47									#81
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quote: My best college essay was for Cornell. They asked you to address a social problem. I picked a windy road near where I lived (Lawyer's Road) which needed an upgrade. Title: "Fix the Deathtrap". Did some research on it and everything. Was prettyn fun. I heard that they thought it was a lot better than all the people who blathered on about solving world hunger. Goes to Owen Johnson's famous words of advice for new writers, "write about what you know".

-Lol... about every through road in Atlanta that has less than 2 lanes is a deathtrap

Now in college, I'm getting involved in a lot more stuff on campus so that at the very least I will have some more solid foundations to build my next set of BS on. Hey, it got me priority housing and registration next year so I must be on the right track now.

	01-07-2002 01:49									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Trust me... SAT scores and grades could not help me enough. I was salutatorian (of the magnet program) at my school and had a 1540 (the only time I took the SAT) and a pair of 800s (Math II and Physics) and a 670 (Writing) on SAT IIs. I'm telling you, a bad essay, and lack of certain activities they currently seem to favor killed me. Heck, even my MIT interview went well. (Unlike the one for President's Scholarship at Tech.)

Well getting good grades isn't too hard when that is all you do. I haven't done that much activities either (just a web site and a few school things) but I have some hardship things I can use.

	01-07-2002 01:53									#83
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I was at a rather severe disadvantage, not having any means of getting home if I stayed after school. Before school and on many of my weekends I had my various academic activities (math team, and scholar's bowl). Those were fun and our school was pretty good.

	01-07-2002 01:55									#84
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Well...they obviously identified you as a grind. (No activities, no leadership.) The SAT II writing is pretty lousy too. Maybe it carried over to your essays? Clear writing is clear thinking, son. Put some effort there...it will help you all around.

I would think that your recent travel experience has broadened you. Provided that you traveled without parental supervision.

	01-07-2002 01:59									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis I was at a rather severe disadvantage, not having any means of getting home if I stayed after school. Before school and on many of my weekends I had my various academic activities (math team, and scholar's bowl). Those were fun and our school was pretty good.

I have a very hard time getting home too. I ride public transportation. Even with that, I sometimes have to walk many miles home after that. There have been a few afternoons were I've been a few hours just walking home.

Also, Math Team and Scholar's Bowl seem pretty wimpy. You could have at least been on the debate team.

	01-07-2002 02:04									#86
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quote: Well...they obviously identified you as a grind. (No activities, no leadership.) The SAT II writing is pretty lousy too. Maybe it carried over to your essays? Clear writing is clear thinking, son. Put some effort there...it will help you all around.

-I think they hated my essay. I can't remember the topic, but I think I took a controversial position. I have very little respect for places that do not have respect for my academic activities, but hey what can I do... I would have been unhappy at MIT, so not getting in was a blessing in disguise. I do enough work at Tech, and it's good to at least know a bunch of people that go to the same school.

quote: I would think that your recent travel experience has broadened you. Provided that you traveled without parental supervision.

-That was long after the applications were turned in. I would like to think that I was as broad-minded before as I am now, but I think my travels have given me a lot more self-confidence, which is good.

In my college application days, I frowned a little too much on BS, and strove a little too much for honesty, which didn't help given that I didn't have much leadership to begin with. I can see clearly why I got into Berkeley Their essay was about writing about stuff they should know about me that was not asked for on the application, and I think I told a good bit about my earlier travels and linguistic skills, something I don't often get to talk about on these applications. And it flowed freely, largely BS free. I wrote that essay in under two hours, unlike the others which I went over and over again. I knew once it had come out that it was pretty close to as close to perfect as it was ever going to be

	01-07-2002 02:07									#87
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quote: I have a very hard time getting home too. I ride public transportation. Even with that, I sometimes have to walk many miles home after that. There have been a few afternoons were I've been a few hours just walking home.

-That sort of thing just isn't safe in Atlanta. I would have been run over a long time ago if I tried walking home 8miles, and the public transit is pure **** here. I just couldn't really spend time doing something I didn't really love doing, and then walk home for like 3 hours dodging cars.

quote: Also, Math Team and Scholar's Bowl seem pretty wimpy. You could have at least been on the debate team.

-I was one year, but the mechanical nature of debate did not appeal to me. Heh... our math team kicked serious ass, and I was the #2 person on it, not terribly wimpy I would think.

	01-07-2002 02:09									#88
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quote: No, but they'd change for the better

Of course.

quote: Au contraire. You are either going to a school that is doing a **** job of preparing you, or you are stupid, both of which I would consider serious barriers.

That may be true, but most colleges don't see it that way. Whether or not one takes vector calc or linear algebra in high school really is irrelevent to most places.

quote: That is all we did aside from study the book though. That is the only way it affected my cirriculum.

Seems like a pretty big impact to me. Of course, since the SAT is set at such a low baseline wrt math, the impact is negative.

quote: Not every school is the same.

Yep. That's what I was pointing out.

	01-07-2002 02:11									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -That sort of thing just isn't safe in Atlanta. I would have been run over a long time ago if I tried walking home 8miles, and the public transit is pure **** here. I just couldn't really spend time doing something I didn't really love doing, and then walk home for like 3 hours dodging cars.

It isn't safe in Houston either. That didn't stop me.

quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -I was one year, but the mechanical nature of debate did not appeal to me. Heh... our math team kicked serious ass, and I was the #2 person on it, not terribly wimpy I would think.

If debate was mechanical, then you were doing it all wrong. Though there are set times, debate should be far from mechanical.

#2 on the math team still seems bad.

	01-07-2002 02:13									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Seems like a pretty big impact to me. Of course, since the SAT is set at such a low baseline wrt math, the impact is negative.

Less than .5% (probably much smaller but I'm too lazy to figure it out exactly) of time spent on SAT related things is a big impact?