01-07-2002 02:56									#121
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What is the point?

	01-07-2002 02:57									#122
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GP and Apoc, if calculus were added to the SAT, do you guys seriously think school curriculums wouldn't change?

	01-07-2002 02:57									#123
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The point is that the SAT doesn't decide the cirriculum.

	01-07-2002 02:58									#124
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It certainly affects it.

	01-07-2002 02:58									#125
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quote: I have that too. It is called walking on the grass. Don't be afraid to get your shoes a little dirty.

-That only works when there is grass Which is a couple places, but a couple others, there really is no way to walk on the grass, or really any grass thanks to the hill/trees.

quote: I need evidence too. I just remember it from my head. If I can't remember some counter evidence from my head, I'll just attack their evidence for being invalid and nullify any need for me to have evidence on whatever subject.

-I'm beginning to think we did different sorts of debate here. You didn't do policy did you?

quote: I knew the time period was 1810 to 1860, with a little thought it was obvious it would be about reform movements/

-1875-1925 is fun... it could be about the Populist movement, or WWI, or the Progressive movement, or the railroads, or a couple other things

	01-07-2002 02:58									#126
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That is a silly argument. Calculus will never be added to the SAT. The SAT is (at least until 2005) based on cirriculums, not the other way around. If everyone was taught calculus by the junior year, then the SAT would probably touch on it too.

	01-07-2002 03:01									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And GP, changing the SAT should be done to encourage the school systems, not students, to change their agendas.

How. Government order? The SAT is a tool that schools use for admissions. It is optimized for that. You want to use it for some little pet project that you've got. (I was tempted to say "bug up ass".) Lots of states already require curriculums well beyond the minimum needed to take the SAT. In any case, its an aptitude test. If you think your state should have higher standards, just go urge them to put in the tests that NY has for HS graduation. Or the curriculum requirements that lots of states have. Or honors curriculums.

And what is all this BS about requiring calculus. You are way out in left field there. Obviously you think everybody should be like you. Plenty of people can contribute a great deal to the world and still take calculus in college or not at all.

	01-07-2002 03:01									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -That only works when there is grass Which is a couple places, but a couple others, there really is no way to walk on the grass, or really any grass thanks to the hill/trees.

Bah. I walk in drainage ditches at times.

quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -I'm beginning to think we did different sorts of debate here. You didn't do policy did you?

I've done both policy and LD. Policy is a little more evidence based, but you can spend a great amount of time just attacking their evidence instead of looking for your own.

quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -1875-1925 is fun... it could be about the Populist movement, or WWI, or the Progressive movement, or the railroads, or a couple other things

It could be about a few things, but you just have to look at the trend and look for what was leaked out before the test.

	01-07-2002 03:02									#129
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The SAT is based on what the College Board thinks best predicts college performance, not curriculums.

quote: That is a silly argument. Calculus will never be added to the SAT.

It might with some serious federal pressure. It's a hypothetical question. Answer it.

	01-07-2002 03:04									#130
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Yes, but why would the government pressure it? You didn't answer my comment about how the SAT is based off cirriculum. Analogies, reading comprehension, vocab, algebra, and geomotry were all things that nearly all cirriculums focus on before there even was an SAT.

	01-07-2002 03:08									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo It certainly affects it.

I think it has little effect on curriculums at this time. If changed, it might have some effect...although I think you seriously underestimate how hard it is to drive change. Regardless. I think schools should set their curriculum as they see fit and that change should be driven on a local level.

The SAT is a tool of the unis. It is a statistical instrument designed to test success likelihood. It is optimized for that purpose. I doubt that your changes would help much. Especially since shools already look at transcripts to see the level of classes that astudent has taken. (Remember in a multifactor regression, you want "independent" factors to build a better Rsq.)

	01-07-2002 03:09									#132
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quote: How. Government order? The SAT is a tool that schools use for admissions. It is optimized for that. You want to use it for some little pet project that you've got. (I was tempted to say "bug up ass".)

That's exactly true.

quote: Lots of states already require curriculums well beyond the minimum needed to take the SAT. In any case, its an aptitude test. If you think your state should have higher standards, just go urge them to put in the tests that NY has for HS graduation. Or the curriculum requirements that lots of states have. Or honors curriculums.

None of that can be done federally.

quote: And what is all this BS about requiring calculus. You are way out in left field there. Obviously you think everybody should be like you. Plenty of people can contribute a great deal to the world and still take calculus in college or not at all.

Never said otherwise. It should be done simply a pressure to give everyone the opportunity to get a decent high school education, as well as increase minimum standards to a reasonable level.

	01-07-2002 03:12									#133
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You're answers are non-responsive at this point, Ramo. If you have something useful to say, please do so. Otherwise, I'm wasting my time.

	01-07-2002 03:13									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Never said otherwise. It should be done simply a pressure to give everyone the opportunity to get a decent high school education, as well as increase minimum standards to a reasonable level.

I'm sorry, but if you are going to keep arguing this, would you please explain was is so f***ing important about calculus? I know it is important for many people, but few go into a field where they'd need to know it by the time they are done with their junior year.

	01-07-2002 03:15									#135
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quote: Yes, but why would the government pressure it?

quote: Analogies, reading comprehension, vocab, algebra, and geomotry were all things that nearly all cirriculums focus on before there even was an SAT.

quote: I think it has little effect on curriculums at this time. If changed, it might have some effect...

The SAT is a baseline test. This very fact is what affects curriculums currently.

quote: Especially since shools already look at transcripts to see the level of classes that astudent has taken.

The level of classes isn't anywhere nearly as important as SAT scores or GPA's.

	01-07-2002 03:18									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The SAT is a baseline test. This very fact is what affects curriculums currently.

You can use the same argument for saying the SAT is cirriculum based.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The level of classes isn't anywhere nearly as important as SAT scores or GPA's.

This isn't entirely correct. People who take really easy courses are looked down upon.

	01-07-2002 03:19									#137
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quote: Bah. I walk in drainage ditches at times.

-Yes, but if you can teach me how to walk through trees, then I will be forever in your debt

quote: I've done both policy and LD. Policy is a little more evidence based, but you can spend a great amount of time just attacking their evidence instead of looking for your own.

-Policy is quite mechanical. LD is not done at my school. Now, most rounds I've been in, if I attack their evidence, they counter by saying I'm not providing any and so I get tied down to reading cards to support my points. (Keep in mind, the year I did debate we were debating foreign policy with Russia, so cards were largely required... though I did have some fun in CX asking someone what they thought about the 14th army, and why Russia couldn't use that for whatever we were debating. I got the funniest stares)

quote: It could be about a few things, but you just have to look at the trend and look for what was leaked out before the test.

-Or you could know everything like you're supposed to. I didn't get a 5 knowing only selective pieces of info.

	01-07-2002 03:22									#138
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quote: I'm sorry, but if you are going to keep arguing this, would you please explain was is so f***ing important about calculus? I know it is important for many people, but few go into a field where they'd need to know it by the time they are done with their junior year.

I'm not saying that absolutely everyone should take calculus. But everyone should have the opportunity to do so. And standards should increase from the sorry state they currently are at.

Putting calculus on the test would be a pressure, nothing more.

quote: You're answers are non-responsive at this point, Ramo. If you have something useful to say, please do so. Otherwise, I'm wasting my time.

How are your answers any more responsive than mine?
You think that standards should be set locally, I disagree.
You think that the SAT should predict college performance only, I disagree.

	01-07-2002 03:25									#139
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quote: This isn't entirely correct. People who take really easy courses are looked down upon.

-Maybe, but taking 10 APs and German 5, and Multivariable certainly didn't do me very much good as far as getting into college was concerned... but hey, at least I started out as a sophomore

	01-07-2002 03:25									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Yes, but if you can teach me how to walk through trees, then I will be forever in your debt

You are being silly. Walk between the trees.

quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Policy is quite mechanical. LD is not done at my school. Now, most rounds I've been in, if I attack their evidence, they counter by saying I'm not providing any and so I get tied down to reading cards to support my points. (Keep in mind, the year I did debate we were debating foreign policy with Russia, so cards were largely required... though I did have some fun in CX asking someone what they thought about the 14th army, and why Russia couldn't use that for whatever we were debating. I got the funniest stares)

There must have been LD done at the tournaments. Just because your school doesn't practice it doesn't mean you can't do it. My debate practice consists of things like me making fun of my English teacher for playing console games all the time. If they counter by saying you lack evidence, you should have said you don't need evidence to prove theirs wrong and you've shown that by them not being able to defend your attack.

quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Or you could know everything like you're supposed to. I didn't get a 5 knowing only selective pieces of info.

You may get some anal reader for your essay. It is good to be highly knowledgable like in knowing minor dates and names.

	01-07-2002 03:28									#141
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quote: You can use the same argument for saying the SAT is cirriculum based.

The SAT predicts college performance. It isn't necessarily curriculum based. GP just posted a bunch of links showing that.

You still haven't answered my question if you actually think that a major change in the SAT (such as adding calculus) wouldn't cause a major change in the curriculums.

quote: This isn't entirely correct. People who take really easy courses are looked down upon.

Not that much. Also, many states give automatic admission in state schools to people with high GPA's (Texas, for instance, gives the top 10% of the class automatic admission).

	01-07-2002 03:28									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I'm not saying that absolutely everyone should take calculus. But everyone should have the opportunity to do so. And standards should increase from the sorry state they currently are at. Putting calculus on the test would be a pressure, nothing more.

By saying absolutely everyone you are acting like even 1/3 need calculus. This is crazy. Math is not important for many people. Hell, West Point suggests you DO NOT take AP Calculus unless you are very smart in mathematics.

	01-07-2002 03:30									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis -Maybe, but taking 10 APs and German 5, and Multivariable certainly didn't do me very much good as far as getting into college was concerned... but hey, at least I started out as a sophomore

That is because of what GP stated. You didn't show you had leadership skills because you didn't do many activities. This is rightly so because you apparently have bad social skills since you choose to do homework over talk with friends.

	01-07-2002 03:33									#144
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Everyone should have the opportunity to take AP calculus. People in the school I went to freshman year didn't for instance.

And math sharpens the mind, preparing people for other fields, even if one doesn't use it in their own.

	01-07-2002 03:33									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The SAT predicts college performance. It isn't necessarily curriculum based. GP just posted a bunch of links showing that.

It is based more on cirriculum than the other way around

quote: Originally posted by Ramo You still haven't answered my question if you actually think that a major change in the SAT (such as adding calculus) wouldn't cause a major change in the curriculums.

Of course if would changes things, but it would not happen. You argument makes no sense.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Not that much. Also, many states give automatic admission in state schools to people with high GPA's (Texas, for instance, gives the top 10% of the class automatic admission).

Many schools in Texas also change GPA's based on classes to get around that.

	01-07-2002 03:35									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Everyone should have the opportunity to take AP calculus. People in the school I went to freshman year didn't for instance. And math sharpens the mind, preparing people for other fields, even if one doesn't use it in their own.

Everyone should be able to take calculus. Some schools just lack the resources for this though. If education and child care was completely nationalized, this would be fixed. Changing the SAT wouldn't fix it though.

	01-07-2002 03:36									#147
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quote: You are being silly. Walk between the trees.

-Yes, I just don't like turning an 8 mile walk started at 4:30pm into an 8 mile hike, because there is no way I would make it home before dark most days then. And on the days when I could make it home before dark, it would be too hot to walk. If I made it home at 8:30pm, my life would have sucked royally. In high school I went to bed at 10:30-11:00 at the latest.

quote: There must have been LD done at the tournaments.

-Most tournaments clashed with scholar's bowl and math tournaments. Besides, at my school we reffered to LD as Loser Debate.

quote: If they counter by saying you lack evidence, you should have said you don't need evidence to prove theirs wrong and you've shown that by them not being able to defend your attack.

-Maybe, but the way I have been taught debate was way too card intensive for my tastes. Maybe it's because the people who taught me sucked, but that's not exactly my fault, now is it?

quote: You may get some anal reader for your essay. It is good to be highly knowledgable like in knowing minor dates and names.

-You clearly don't know me Of course, I don't remember any of that stuff now, but then...

quote: By saying absolutely everyone you are acting like even 1/3 need calculus. This is crazy. Math is not important for many people. Hell, West Point suggests you DO NOT take AP Calculus unless you are very smart in mathematics.

-Shows you how much West Point knows The problem with calculus is not that people can't understand it, it's that most schools do a **** job of teaching all the stuff that leads up to it.

	01-07-2002 03:37									#148
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quote: It is based more on cirriculum than the other way around

It's not based on curriculum. It's based on predicting college performance.

quote: Of course if would changes things, but it would not happen.

Again, that isn't necessarily true with major government pressure.

quote: You argument makes no sense.

Why?
You just admitted my entire point. Changing the SAT would create a pressure for change in schools.

quote: Many schools in Texas also change GPA's based on classes to get around that.

Besides with honors and AP classes, how?

	01-07-2002 03:39									#149
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quote: This is rightly so because you apparently have bad social skills since you choose to do homework over talk with friends.

-Yes, I have bad social skills because I chose not to disturb class

	01-07-2002 03:41									#150
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quote: Some schools just lack the resources for this though.

Not at all. It doesn't take extra resources to get teachers to accelerate high school math.