03-07-2002 22:36									#1
	The Quest for Deeper Strategy.... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I really enjoyed hammering out ideas for the Mod-With-No-Name, back when we did that. That was cool. That was very cool, actually.

But what I had in my head this time was a bit different, and a bit simpler, I think.

Some (and it wouldn't take many) tweaks to the bic file that would make the game more grand in terms of strategy, and fix a few lingering annoyances.

Here's my mod list and the reasons I'm thinking of making the change.

1) Make techs cost what they cost! (actually, you can't, exactly...but you can make the upper time limit 100 Turns, and the lower time limit 1 turn for discovery of new techs).

Reasoning: This shouldn't hurt the AI much at all, given their bonuses, but I've never liked the artificial feel of those arbitrary constraints. One thing it will do for the HUMAN player, however, is really make you think about growth. After all, if you grow and build that library, you could REALLY cut down on the time needed to discover Warrior Code.....Granaries more useful by far. Pottery might actually become a sought after tech! (inadventantly, this strengthens Expansionist, which IMO is a good thing on most map settings).

Also, it'll extend the ancient and middle age period (before you get your libraries and universities built). And in my mind, that's where the heart and soul of the game is.

2) Age-Specific bonus hp's. The editor allows this...every age beyond the first, each unit of that age gets +1 hp per age (such that a regular knight would have as many hp's as a veteran sword....a regular rifleman would have as many hp's as a veteran knight, etc). This hp bonus is reflective of the inherent superiority of later-aged units. one hp per age might not seem like much, but what it means is that your elite MA's have 8 hp's...OUCH!

Reasoning: This should help even out the combat results. I really HAVE seen tanks killed by spearmen. Not often, mind you...but more often that statistics tell me is reasonable.

3) Musket Man changed to a cost of 5

Reasoning: He's too expensive and never gets built.

4) Increase ship movement by +1 point per age over what the movement currently is.

5) Default Barbs: Sorry, but even at raging, the barbs are annoying and little more. I'd LOVE to be able to mod the game so that they could capture cities, but since we can't, I changed the default units: Swordsman, Knight, Caravel. Barbs are now LETHAL, and worthy of the terror they ought to inspire. Simply put, if you're faced with a barbarian uprising in Ancient times...don't even bother trying to defend your towns.

6) Explorer: Available at map making. How silly to not make an exploration unit available till the game's half over with, at a point in the game when there's absolutely nothing to explore. Yeah, it bites into Expansionist's spiffy ability, but not really. By then all the goody huts are gone. At navigation, make another Explorer type unit available...this one costing two pop points. Same abilities as the regular explorer, plus acts as a worker, plus can make new towns.

7) Bombards: All troops with ranged weapons should get them (range 0). Will extend the shelf life of Archers a little.

8) Was giving some serious thought to making all troops cost points of pop to build (and of course, make it such that old troops could be added back into the city). That'd make granaries exponentially more important, and would add in a real guns and butter factor into the mix....how bad do I REALLY need another attacker??

9) Elevated the defensive bonuses for various things (25% for town bonus, for example) - Since all current best practices point to early war, I thought I'd make early war a bit more daunting.

10) Was seriously considering giving all units ZOC ability. I agree the old ZOC system was broken, but c'mon...the total lack of ZOC is downright silly, and all military units can exert at least some control over their area....that's kinna the point!

11) Give Commercial Civs Pottery as their starting tech also...this offsets the fact that the Commercial Civ has a weak (in its current implementation) special abililty, and justifies why Pottery is such a cheapo tech, given the new importance of Granaries.

Was gonna make these modifications and see how it played out, and wanted to see if anybody else might be interested in the modified bic file.

-=Vel=-

Last edited by Velociryx on 03-07-2002 at 22:41

	03-07-2002 22:43									#2
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D'oh! Forgot to make it an even dozen changes: Specialists: Taxmen available at Currency, provide 3 coins, Scientists available at writing, provide 3 beakers.

-=Vel=-

	03-07-2002 22:47									#3
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What about lethal bombardment?

	03-07-2002 22:52									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Don't know....that's a good thought...would make planes able to sink ships...a good thing. Would also make ZOC and the bombard of ranged troops a bit more dangerous. Izzat something we can do with the newest iteration of the editor. I've not looked.

-=Vel=-

	03-07-2002 22:58									#5
	Suffering from ads?

1.21 allows it. It is something I have been thinking about, however it may make Arty and Bombers too powerful.

	03-07-2002 23:03									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Vel,

If you want to balance out commercial, I would suggest a discount on marketplaces and banks (25% so it's not too big).

Or, I pondered turning "commercial" into "lawful." Since it's actually a anti-corruption trait, why not make courthouses and police stations 1/2 price?

I think you're going overboard with the barbs, but that's just me. I'm not too big on barbs.

edit: I think lethal bombardment would break the game.

-Arrian

	03-07-2002 23:28									#7
	Tired of ads?

Some suggestions for you:

1) Give tanks the "wheeled" flag. This way they can't enter mountains and jungles without roads.

Reasoning: Makes paratroopers and marines more useful. Also enhances realism.

2) Reduce the cost of privateers to 4. (Privateers are also a better choice for the barbarian naval unit, by the way)

Reasoning: Currently privateers cost as much as frigates. They are not cost-effective at all.

3) Reduce the movement of ironclads to 3, and make them available with industialization.

Reasoning: The age of sail is not long enough. This way when ironclads become available, they do not make frigates obsolete (as was the case historically).

4) Reduce cost for espionage, especially for propaganda and stealing techs.

Reasoning: Currently it is simply not worth investing in espionage.

5) Change SS components to require different (later) techs.

Reasoning: You never get through half the modern age tech tree before launching.

Check out player 1's mod for minor unit tweaks that improve game balance.

PS. Arrian, civs traits like building costs are not modifiable through the editor.

	03-07-2002 23:37									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I've been thinking about this too... good ideas.

Stay tuned for a new thread:

The Best of the Best

	03-07-2002 23:47									#9
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quote: PS. Arrian, civs traits like building costs are not modifiable through the editor.

Well, so much for that idea.

Good point about the "wheeled" flag. Tanks on mountains and in jungles are sorta silly.

Privateers are actually pretty useful as they are now... IF you're a powerful nation and can build them in decent numbers. Otherwise they're not worth it. Dunno about the cost drop...

-Arrian

	04-07-2002 00:07									#10
	In case some of you guys haven't seen this yet... Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

For changes to the Commercial trait (and a couple of other things) in PtW from a recent chat with Firaxis:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=54567

No announced help for the Expansionists, though.

Does this mean we can look forward to a 'The Joys of being Commercial' thread after PtW has been released?

	04-07-2002 00:11									#11
	Remove this text

Having thought about it over lunch, I have come to the same conclusion that Arrian arrived at. Lethal bombardment would break the game.

At this point, everything's pretty well set in stone, and all we can do is tweak the existing framework. If there ever was a window of opportunity to influence the core design, that time is long past.

Since the AI is non-moddable, and it can't make effective use of bombard units (for the life of me, I cannot fathom why the AI sends it bombers to take out my access to Saltpeter, as my Modern Armor slices through its empire), then the only advantage we get by making bombard units lethal is a decidedly human advantage.

Yeah, we all know that planes can sink ships. I would say, however, that Civ has never been about hyper-realism, and to make that aspect of the game reflect reality will break the game in a great many other ways. It's just not worth the tradeoff, IMO.

I like the naval changes, and will add those mods to the list. Primarily what I'm looking to do is to make the needed changes to make the game more compelling and strategic, without having to use anything more than the editor (I don't wanna have to do all those funky gyrations that are required when you add in new techs and such....don't understand that anyway, and don't have the time to learn it, sadly). So...I'm attempting to address what I see as weaknesses of the design with quick and dirty fixes that will make the game more balanced, and offer up more in the way of strategic choice.

For example: By extending the minimum tech time out to 100 turns, then research really matters. You can't just ride the AI's coattails anymore. Every beaker counts.

It also adds weight and importance to your starting tech, and to individual tech choices. No more of this just researching "whatever." Won't work that way anymore.

The Archer rush and early Horsie rush are, not killed exactly, but greatly curtailed by making troops cost pop points, and by adding some teeth to defensive bonuses. Under the system proposed, strategy is more important, and most existing strategies will have to be revised in the face of the changes (can't just set your research slider to 10% and expect to buy your way to dominance...not unless you wanna spend 3000 years in the stone ages). Anyway, I've got some time tonight, and can make these changes in fairly short order, if anybody wants to try a game under the modified bic settings, I'll post it when it's done.

-=Vel=-

	04-07-2002 00:13									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

LOL....mayhaps, Stoo....mayhaps....

-=Vel=-

	04-07-2002 00:17									#13
	Lethal Bombardment Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I played for a while with a mod that included lethal naval bombardment (i.e., most bombardment units could kill naval units but not land units).

That alone "broke the game" as the AI simply didn't use it effectively.

Catt

	04-07-2002 00:55									#14
	Great Scott (Library) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Semi-random thoughts.....

1) The mod to the tech costs would make me go directly for the Great Lirary without passing go. This would seem to become the one wonder that you couldn't do without.

2) The units costing citizens, I think will have a tendency to break th AI. It was not designed for it. It will be running its normal strat for defensive and offensive builds, and kill its cities by (unknowning) stripping them of population. This will slow the AI way down and make them easy targets for the human player. We all know one of the strats for success late in the game is to get the AI into a war so it drips to communism and decimates its cities with conscirpted units. I have on a number of occasions put embassies in only to see the AI sitting with a built settler waiting for the pop to expand so it will build. Now this will happen all the time as the AI cities sit at pop 1 while it tries, unsuccessfully to build that second warrior. Maybe when MP comes out, this will be a great mod and slow those rush players down, but against the AI I think it will be deadly.

3) I like the wheeled for the armoured units. I can see it now, placing cities in jungles and leaving that defensive band to slow invaders down.

	04-07-2002 00:57									#15
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Bingo. Bombard is already a human advantage, because we know how to use it, whereas the AI just sticks 1-2 bombard units in its core cities for defense. It's a good thing that Firaxis weakened it in 1.17.

Good news about the commercial trait. Very good news.

Vel,

I'd like to see how the game plays without the research caps. Definite boost in power for the Great Library, I'd say. Then you CAN ride the AI's coatails while setting up your economy. Emperor and Deity would be truely brutal. You'd be in a hideous hole.

Nerfing early war may be a good idea. One could still seriously harm a civ by stealing workers and killing any exposed units, but the mongol horde rush for continental domination would go away. I'd miss it, though

Edit: more thoughts: Bear in mind that some of these chances will further unbalance staring positions. Rivers in particular will provide a HUGE (as opposed to the present BIG) boost, since you trade is doubled when compared to a non-river start, plus you don't need an aqueduct... and you can irrigate. The removal of tech caps and the pop cost of units will make this an even bigger deal.

-Arrian

	04-07-2002 01:01									#16
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Good point re: units....a pity we can't make the rules changes apply only to the human player....*sigh*

'k, I shall remove that one from my list....and contemplate some other fiendishness....

-=Vel=-

	04-07-2002 01:03									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Vel,

If you do the tech cap thing, you may want to remove the Great Library, or (if possible) modify its effects.

-Arrian

	04-07-2002 01:08									#18
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Actually, I don't think the tech cap would greatly overpower the Great Library. You can still buy techs from the AI for cheap after everyone knows them. You can also get them by asking politely after you have left them with one city.

	04-07-2002 01:27									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Excellent points! As I see it, the problem with beelining straight for the Great Library is one of defense. Unless you are Scientific/Commercial, a beeline for the GL will leave you defending with nothing but Warriors til you get Literature...that could be a LOOOONG time coming, and if you meet a militaristic civ with Archers, then, defensive bonuses for your towns aside, you're pretty much toasted.

Likewise, unless you find luxuries, a beeline straight for GL will leave you without temples, further hindering your growth, and your ability to maintain happiness while it's building.

Essentially then, it would strengthen that beeline, but not, IMO, overpower it. Likewise, the rush game wouldn't be killed off, but it would require more forces to get the job done. Where an early Archer rush now can get the job done with 4-5 Archers, you will probably wanna have 7-8 Archers in your strike force now. A significantly higher investment for the same damage.

Still, when I'm mucking around in the editor, I'll take a look at the GL and see if it can be modded to sharetech4, instead of 3, for example....and maybe bump the price up, too.

So...my revised list looks like this:

1) Unit tweaks: ZOC, Range-0 Bombards, Price fixing for a few units that really need it. (This includes adding the wheeled flag on tanks, MA, and MI) - will also toy with boosting the ADM values for paratroopers and marines slightly, to make them more attractive still. (also includes the age-specific HP bonuses).

2) Increase the strength of Barbs - we'll use the Bab Bowmen and horsemen...how's that for a compromise? Makes them sturdy, all around stubborn son of a guns, but not quite as vicious as I originally outlined.

3) Tech Cost Increase, with a corresponding increase in GL cost (or possible removal?)

4) Taxman/Scientists now require pre-requisite techs (along the non-warlike path, it should be noted), and now actually provide some useful advantage 3 of the resource they provide

5) Slight modification to defensive bonuses.

6) Give Commercial Civs an extra starting tech - Pottery.

7) Tweak naval unit movement rates, and relocate ironclads, extanding the age of sail.

****

It's true, rivers will be HUGELY more important post mod, than they are now. I mean, they're important now...no denying it....but the changes I plan to make, will make access to a river something worth going to war over, as it can and will have serious long term reprecussions on your game....consider a resource then, to be a "multi-tile" luxury item.....yowza!

Will make the aforementioned tweaks when I get home, and post the modified file here for anybody who's interested!

-=Vel=-

	04-07-2002 01:53									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

OK, sound pretty good, but one dumb question.

What does "Range-0 Bombards" mean?

well, actually make that 2 questions. If MI is being set as wheeled, will it still cancel out regular infantry? How do I send in the dogfaces to the jungles or mountains?

	04-07-2002 01:57									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hey guy! Range 0 Bombard gives the defender a shot at you on your way in. (kinna like when artillery fires defensively when you attack a city that has artillery in it).

MI should still cancel out regular infantry, yep....I don't think that adding the flag will upset the upgrade path.

-=Vel=-

	04-07-2002 01:58									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx D'oh! Forgot to make it an even dozen changes: Specialists: Taxmen available at Currency, provide 3 coins, Scientists available at writing, provide 3 beakers. -=Vel=-

This is a good mod. Makes specialists even with population working tiles and either has minimal effect on the game or I haven't figured out to take advantage of this correction to Firaxis preferences.

	04-07-2002 01:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Tim_Hobbit If MI is being set as wheeled, will it still cancel out regular infantry? How do I send in the dogfaces to the jungles or mountains?

Marines or paratroopers! Finally something useful for these guys to do! (Shhh.. don't let Catt hear that)

	04-07-2002 02:06									#24
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Thanks guy! It was one we did in the Mod-With-No-Name, and I always thought it was a good one. Not sure what the logic behind having a pop point only produce a single gold or beaker....that really reeks. Makes specialists worse than useless, cos you still have to feed them! At least this way, they're "paying their own way" so to speak.

And yes...I'm pretty excited about the possibility of Marines coming into their own!

Oh...and one more thing....what can we do to make Helicopters...umm....even worth building? Increase their transport rate? Give them a heinous attack? I dunno. I have personally only built one, just to see what the graphic looked like (cool), but never used it, 'cept to fly it around for a couple of turns.

-=Vel=-

	04-07-2002 02:10									#25
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Vel,

I posted a mod in another thread that has most of the changes you are talking about. If it's ok, I'll post another copy of it in this thread, so you can see if it's more to your liking, and so I can get your help improving it.

Most of the changes I made seemed to really make it alot tougher to overrun another civ in the ancient era, but made combat more realistic with much stronger modern era units. I too have seen some spectacularily unrealistic combat results and I figured the unit strengths and terrain defensive changes would reduce the chances just a little. It makes keeping up in technology terribly important so you don't wind up with archers and pikemen facing modern infantry...

I won't be home for a few hours yet, but in the meantime I'll see if I can find the original post.

D.

	04-07-2002 02:14									#26
	Re: Lethal Bombardment Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Catt I played for a while with a mod that included lethal naval bombardment (i.e., most bombardment units could kill naval units but not land units). That alone "broke the game" as the AI simply didn't use it effectively. Catt

I play with lethal bombardment, and have not discovered it broke the game. I find myself not using it because it usually is not needed or wanted.

Naval lethal bombardment
-- Probably not a good idea as navy is so crippled as it is by needed to return to port to rebuild HP's.
-- AI definitely does sent cruise missiles and bombers after BS, DS and carriers.
-- player reaction, need to build carriers for air supremacy power

Land lethal bombardment
-- does help shorten end game when AI has 5-10 of those 15+ cities
-- AI does use bombers, but not artillery. I would recommend removing from artillery.
-- bombers get so exposed by hopping from air field to airfield, their lethal bombardment does not hurt the game. It does though change their roll from primarily offensive to 1)long range defense vs incoming stacks, and 2) speeding up breakup of metropolis comlexes.

	04-07-2002 02:19									#27
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by alexman Check out player 1's mod for minor unit tweaks that improve game balance.

Yes, check it out!

It's good MOD.
Even Firaxians liked it (it's posted at civ3.com too).

Although it's made to be closer to "core" Civ3.
(not to many game breaking, or diffcult for AI, changes).
Makes it easier to MOD to diffcult tastes too.

It has also nice readme file with explanation for every change made into the game.

	04-07-2002 02:20									#28
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quote: Originally posted by alexman Marines or paratroopers! Finally something useful for these guys to do! (Shhh.. don't let Catt hear that)

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx And yes...I'm pretty excited about the possibility of Marines coming into their own!

If you're interested in some of the modern age mods, I had a pretty good experience with the fairly common crusie missle / naval missle changes: cruise missles with a range of 4; nuclear subs carry 4 missles (nuke or cruise), and Aegis carry 2 (cruise only). AI actually used them.

I also had some fun with allowing the regular submarine to carry up to 4 foot units -- the AI used it several times to surprise me by dropping infantry off on my "secure" and "surveilled" continent -- but RR makes that sort of tactic pretty worthless. What I really wanted (of course ) was to have the AI use a couple of subs stocked with marines to amphibiously sneak attack a weakly defended "home continent" city. Didn't happen for me but I didn't give it much of a chance since I gave up the mod pretty quickly and went back to standard games.

I modded the helo to carry 4 units and increased its range. Still never found a use for it.

Finally, Vel, the new patch is coming very soon -- I wouldn't go to the trouble of modding extensively until the new editor is out.

Catt

	04-07-2002 02:22									#29
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Vel,

Found it:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...25&pagenumber=2

Near the top of the page. I was hoping for some suggestions on how to improve it, so any and all criticism welcomed.

D.

	04-07-2002 02:29									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

Vel - "Oh...and one more thing....what can we do to make Helicopters...umm....even worth building? Increase their transport rate? Give them a heinous attack? I dunno. I have personally only built one, just to see what the graphic looked like (cool), but never used it, 'cept to fly it around for a couple of turns. "

I typically build hundreds of helicopters! Every city on my main continent that doesn't have anything better to do builds helios. Then I pop them over the underdeveloped/hi corruption cities across the ocean and desolve them into shields.

I also have never found a good military use for them and so never get them confused with real units that I might need somewhere.