06-07-2002 00:16									#1
	Any Interest in a CivIII - Candle'Bre Mod? Support Apolyton

Yeah...I know that there are a LOT of things we couldn't do with it, but we could at least get the "look and feel" of the game down....

Off the top of my head, here's some of the stuff I could see us doing:

* Rip out the tech tree as it exists now. In its place, you'd have three linear tech trees, with ten techs each. We'd need to make them pretty expensive, such that you'd not likely be able to finish out all three trees by the time the game ended.

* Map - CB world, mapped out with the terrain editor

* Set up 60 cities inside the Kingdom of Candle'Bre, each named for one of the provinces. Divide all of the non-player controlled cities up into the hands of variouis AI players

* Tweak the AI's willingness to trade tech (ie - if possible, make no trades of tech happen)

* Remove all goody huts

* Make all troops wheeled, and make it impossible to build roads through mountains

A few other ideas in my head as well....but that's enough to at least put the idea out there.

Couple of points:

* This would require a very different skill set than the ones currently being employed by the group making the alpha version of the game....that said, if we do this, it's not something that'd take away from our ability to get the alpha version out.

* It would, IMO, raise awareness about our own efforts.

* Might be a coolio way to get some of the graphics modders from civ3 interested in us.

Thoughts?

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 00:53									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

I know absolutely nothing about modding Civ3 because I've never done it before, but I'm sure I could learn a bit.

I am VERY interested in helping out.

Once the so-called 'June Patch' comes out then we can really investigate how much the new editor can do for us.

Hopefully it will be 'robust' enough for our purposes.

	06-07-2002 00:56									#3
	Re: Any Interest in a CivIII - Candle'Bre Mod? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx * This would require a very different skill set than the ones currently being employed by the group making the alpha version of the game....that said, if we do this, it's not something that'd take away from our ability to get the alpha version out.

It would probably only detract from our Civ3-playing time. Or eating ... or sleeping ...

quote: * It would, IMO, raise awareness about our own efforts.

Always a good thing.

quote: * Might be a coolio way to get some of the graphics modders from civ3 interested in us.

* FrustratedPoet is taking credit for giving our Great Leader this idea.

	06-07-2002 01:09									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It was indeed your earlier comment to me about the Civ3 artists that got me thinking along those lines! GREAT call...since we've only got three people on the art team, I saw this as a possible way of maybe attracting a few others, so we don't burn the three we have out with too much stuff!

And, I'm glad to see that there's interest in something like this...as I see it, if we can secure the permission of a couple of artists to make use of their existing work, we've got enough units to at least get us started.

How I envision it working:

Techs will cost a bunch....I mean, a whole bunch. Probably tenfold what they cost now. And each tech will allow something important.

Of course, there will be some stuff you can do right off the bat....Temples and Barracks are available at game start, as are all the various troop types...their stats could just carry over from CB

Heavy Infantry

Archers (would get a (lethal) bombard)

Cavalry (Maybe give them bonus HP's to account for thier charge special)

I don't know if the espionage actions can be broken down into individual techs or no (ie - steal research at level three, steal gold at level 2...or if they come all as a bundle....if they come all as a bundle, then the Espionage "tree" will be a little thin...will have to see about that).

Was thinking about having three basic forms of government, like we've been talking about here.....Aristocratic, Theocratic, Republican, making each available from the start (no pre-requisite techs), and giving each some unique property (unit or building) that helps in a specific way.

Settlers would be turned off....no building new cities. New tech advances that make troops better would enable you to build an "upgraded" version of your old troop (same graphic) but with better stats.

How's that for a start?


-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 01:17									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

That's a good start.

I doubt that espionage thing will be possible. We'll see though ...

Should we turn workers off? The Alpha version of CB won't feature terrain improvements so do you think we should disallow these for the mod also?
Improving terrain is a bit easier in Civ3 than it is in CB. I think it would be best if we fixed the irrigation, roads and mines in the map editor. What do you think?

What are your thoughts for the factions Civ-specific traits? We could switch them off, but it might be fun to leave them in...
I wonder ... will each faction/civ have to have 2 traits in the new editor, or can we only give them one?

If we can give them only one trait:

Castillar - Religious

Mourngrym - Commercial

Furies - Militarisitic

Seven - Industrious (but if we disallow workers this becomes pointless)

Wizards - well ... the one left over is Expansionist, but they're definitely not that ... maybe Religious again?

	06-07-2002 01:31									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmmm...I'm thinking we should maybe redefine the traits for our own nefarious purposes.....for example....what if we made a dummy tech for each faction, made it non-tradeable, and gave them benefits based on that tech (ie cheaper temples, special units, etc)?

Dunno about the worker thing, but I agree they should be more limited. Maybe still let them chop trees, plant trees, and (especially) build fortifications. I don't think we should give them the road building ability tho, and if we do allow irrigation, then it should take a LOT longer than it does now.

Also, I'm thinking that with the inability to build settlers, requiring combat use pop points in order to be produced will not break the AI...least I hope not!

This could be cool...and, since I've got nothing in particular to do this weekend, I could maybe get started editing the rules....anybody wanna take a peek at Cyclo's terrain map and try their hand at making Candle'Bre?

Hmmm...should we use Snoopy's graphics? I keep hearing GREAT things about them!

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 01:36									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet That's a good start. I doubt that espionage thing will be possible. We'll see though ... Should we turn workers off? The Alpha version of CB won't feature terrain improvements so do you think we should disallow these for the mod also? Improving terrain is a bit easier in Civ3 than it is in CB. I think it would be best if we fixed the irrigation, roads and mines in the map editor. What do you think?

I'm pretty sure the espianage is dividable, though we'll see. However, we should have workers. We can regulate what they can do, and we can (or I'm pretty sure we can) increase the time it actually takes to do the job. Or not,

	06-07-2002 01:44									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx we use Snoopy's graphics? I keep hearing GREAT things about them! -=Vel=-

Yes we should, but since I'm one of the people who keeps telling you great things about them then I doubt that will come as a suprise.

Good news about changing the abilites of workers. I didn't know that was possible. Like I said, I'm a newbie at modding.

I might make a rough start on the terrain if you want to mess about with the rules bic Vel.

What size map shall we work from?
One of the smaller ones I think, since the world of CB is necessarily claustrophobic.
Will Standard be too big? ... will Small be too small?

	06-07-2002 01:48									#9
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I'm ballparking this, but...on a standard map with 8 civs, I *think* (from my admittedly faulty memory) that you can build 8 cities before you get the corruption/Forbidden Palace warning. That means that a standard sized map has room for 64 cities....which is perfect!

So yes, if you wanna delve into the mysteries of the map editor, I'll get cranking on some of the rules (I would imagine that the tech thing is gonna be the twitchiest part....sigh), and we'll see what the heck we can do!

Hmmm....if it looks like I may have to do some radical shenanigans with the techs, and given that I don't know how, one alternative would be to leave the techs as they are, but change their abilities around. We'll see once I get in there....

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 01:51									#10
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Do we know if the new-and-improved editor will allow better editing of the Tech Tree?

If it will ... then it might be best to leave the Techs alone for now. It sounds like a lot of work alter and hopefully the patch will come out in a couple of weeks.

If it won't ... good luck.

	06-07-2002 01:54									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I assume you are going to turn corruption down to nothing... it's not really part of our world ...

* FrustratedPoet looks at Governance Points thread.
(not yet anyway ... )

	06-07-2002 02:03									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Haven't heard anything much about the new patch...not really sure. Hmmm...I think you're right, btw...will focus in on making everything "work" more or less per the core rules, and see what happens....will use the existing framework and just shuffle stuff around for the time being...I don't think it'll take too long to make the basic changes....could be deluding myself there tho...lol

Hmmm...as to corruption...yeah, I think I'll tone it down another couple notches....especially in light of longer worker actions and stuff.

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 02:31									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Dang this is gonna be tough!

I now fully appreciate why everyone rants at Firaxis for not putting a mini-map into the editor!!!!!

Fortunately that is something that will be added in the patch.

How do I add cities?

	06-07-2002 02:44									#14
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I *think* there's a copy tool available in the modding section to add stuff like that...Gramphos made it, IIRC....

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 04:45									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Made a VERY basic mod with the following:

Infantry, Mercenaries, Archers, Skirmishers, and Cavalry, all available with no pre-requisite techs, and using the stats we gave them in the tactical combat model. All require a point of pop to create, 'cept for Mercs, and none upgrade....well, I put scouts in, which can upgrade to Skirmishers, but besides that.....nada. For now, I also left in settlers, cos I'm just gonna fire it up and see how she goes. Assuming the game doesn't implode on me, I will go back incrementally and add some additional stuff.

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 05:20									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I've sketched the outline of the map. Now I need to add the different areas of terrain and the lake. I'll keep it simple for now, it can always be refined later on.

	06-07-2002 05:25									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well, I hope you're having more luck than me...LOL...I reamed my game file..*sigh* Good thing I made a backup first I guess...

Well, I'm back to the drawing board to see what I did wrong....will report back when....there's something coolio to report!

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 05:55									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Attached is the map as far as I am going to take it tonight (1.50am ).
You can't attach bic files here, so I've renamed it as a .doc file. Just save it as candlebremap.bic and it should work (I guess).

It includes the general shape of the Kingdom, the mountains, some foothills, the lake and some rivers.

I'll add some Grassland and Forest later. Then it'll be ready for us to find a way to include the Cities, Units and terrain improvements.

Shall I put Flood Plain tiles along the rivers? Around the Lake? Both?

Shall I use any Shielded Grassland?

If you happen to have the urge to, as a break from your rules bic nightmare, you are welcome to change and add stuff to the map. Please do, in fact ...

Just remember to post the updated version here or email it to me so I can carry on from were you left off.

Attachment: candlebremap.doc
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	06-07-2002 06:12									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Got that part figured out anyways...LOL...it amounted to a rookie mistake on my part....we now have all da basic unit types available!

I used the following graphics and sound effects for the units:

CB Unit = Civ Unit Used:

Infantry = Legionary
Cavalry = Knight
Archer = Longbowmen
Mercenary = Swordsman
Skirmisher = Explorer

Since I'm not doing the tech part just now, I've not added in Pikemen, nor the conjectural Praetorian unit for the Council of Seven.

Bismark of the Germans has graciously agreed to step into the role of Lord Stephen Fury of that faction for my testing purposes (and, he looks kinna cool and strangely fitting in that role), so I think I'm all set for a test run of it...sheesh....this stuff's hard! Will download your map and see what's what, and tweak it some this evening then, posting my changes here when I'm done for the night.... Big fun tho, I have to admit, even tho we're gonna be sadly limited in some of the things we can do.

OH! One coolio thing....I think I know a way to give the Wizard faction a magical power.... Airports can sub in as "Teleportation Portals" for them....

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 07:56									#20
	Re: Any Interest in a CivIII - Candle'Bre Mod? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Damn. Now that is a very very good idea IMO.
Kudos to whoever thought it up. It'll put Candle'Bre back in the Civ3 forums which seem to have the highest population at the moment.

It'll have to wait for the expansion to come out I guess as you still can't place units, cities etc AFAIK, but that could well be a good thing as judging from past history it'll come out along with a large influx/reflux of new/old posters making an appearance.

I'm just ashamed I didn't think of making one for Civ2 first!

	06-07-2002 08:51									#21
	Tired of ads?

Vel, for some reason I think you should have units upgradable. Especially if you can get linear tech lines, which shouldn't be hard. The only really hard thing about that is the graphics, which can be figured out. Other than that it works much like civ2 if I recall.

But here's what I'm talking of:

Infantry 3A3D -> Infantry 4A4D -> Infantry 5A5D

Mabey through in adv. in the name or something. But this will be doable since we do upgrade units. Plus we can add more complex armor and weapons to the unit graphics.

Just an idea.

	06-07-2002 10:32									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Up for air...whew....well, I'm glad to see there are more nods in favor, and so far, no nods against the notion. Hmmm...and a Civ2 mod of Candle'Bre....there's another killer idea!

Some good news, and some bad.

First, I don't think it'll be a problem doing the whole upgrade thing, at least not now that I understand how to do the unit shuffle

Second, the mod works...well, sorta. I did notice that if you right click on a city to change production, it crashes and burns. If you click on the city and change production from inside....no problem. I have no idea what might be causing this, but then....I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a modder.

Bad news:
The espionage stuff isn't able to be broken out into various techs. My solution to that is to roll espionage and military together....they're sortakinna related anyway, and it'll give that research line a beefing up.

Alternate plan to that would be to leave Espionage as its own separate tree, and put corruption busting stuff in there with the espionage (court houses, police stations, and spy stuff).

Will kinna play with it both ways.

For the moment, I'm just calling the upgrades:
Level 2 Infantry, Level 2 Cavalry, etc., so if some history buff or another has some coolio names we can give the ever increasingly bada$$ units, I'm game for it.

I'm also using the same graphics for the upgraded units. They're not changing all THAT much with each upgrade, and I can't do animations at all. Quick and easy fix for the moment, but again, if someone is interested in doing a different graphic set for each upgrade, don't be shy about volunteering!

FP did GREAT on the basic map outline, and I went in and added some trees, grassland, and resources.

That's another thing...resources. Candle'Bre doesn't have any rogue elephant herds running around, but I don't have any CLUE how to put new resources in....so we've got elephants in CB for the moment. Again, once I get the bones of it in place, I'll post it here, and if someone who actually KNOWS something about modding cares to improve on it, I'd be eternally grateful!

Balancing: Unfortunately, we can't get all that specific on the costs of units, and the AI really isn't set up to handle units coming from the population pool...I know...in my test game, the Furies built three Mercenaries, and handed Cleopatra her butt, cos she didn't know what to do. Might have to nix the whole pop point idea, and just give the units a heftier upkeep. Also, because we can't zero in to the individual shield cost (it's in factors of ten), it's kinna unbalanced the units themselves....will work on that as I get to it....right now, I'm just sorta feeling my way blindly, spending more time undoing exploding bic files than actually making progress....frustrating, but also kinna interesting. Or maybe I'm just twisted that way....

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 11:21									#23
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'k....here are the three tech trees I decided to go with, after playing with 'em all:

Infrastructure Bresearch:

Lvl 1: Basic Bresearch - Allows the construction of Libraries

Lvl 2: Basic Engineering - Allows building Fortifications, and Bridges to help with River Crossings. Also allows Aqueduct

Lvl 3: Advanced Irrigation Techniques - Irrigate without an adjacent source of fresh water

Lvl 4: Basic Economics - Allows Marketplace

Lvl 5: Glorification - Allows Cathedrals

Lvl 6: Intermediate Engineering - Allows player to see iron and coal deposits (could allow for the Iron Works Minor Wonder, if conditions are right) Will also allow for the construction of some new buildings that'll reduce the cost of troops (Smithy?)

Lvl 7: Advanced Bresearch - Allows Universities

Lvl 8: Advanced Engineering - Allows Harbor and Frigate/Caravel construction (for what it's worth)

Lvl 9: Advanced Economics - Allows Banks

Lvl 10: Sanitation/Medical Science - Allows Hospitals

Military Bresearch:

Lvl 1: Offensive Tactics - Skirmishers becomem available

Lvl 2: Cavalry Manuvers - Lvl 2 Cavalry become available

Lvl 3: Defensive Tactics - Pikemen become available/ Also allows the construction of the Arena

Lvl 4: Compound Bow - Lvl 2 Archer becomes available

Lvl 5: Siege Tactics - Catapult becomes available (and it's MEAN!)

Lvl 6: Articulated Armor - Lvl 2 Infantry, Lvl 2 Skrimishers, Lvl 2 Pikemen become available

Lvl 7: Large Scale Manuver - Skirmisher gains ZOC (Lvl 3 Skirmisher) - Sun Tzu available to be built.

Lvl 8: Crossbow - Lvl 3 Archer becomes available

Lvl 9: Advanced Forge - Lvl 3 Infantry, Lvl 3 Pikemen, Lvl 4 Skirmisher becomes available

Lvl 10: Advanced Recon - Infantry gain ZOC (Lvl 4), Skirmisher gains a range zero bombard ability (Lvl 5)

Espionage/Diplomacy Bresearch:

Lvl 1: Basic Intel Gathering - Tavern (Happiness build, on par with Temples)

Lvl 2: Basic Diplomacy - Trade Maps, Trade Comm Frequencies

Lvl 3: Basic Criminology - Build Courthouse

Lvl 4: Anit-Corruption Techniques - Forbidden Palace

Lvl 5: Intermediate Diplomacy - Establish Embassies

Lvl 6: Salvage Operations - Extra minerals from water squares

Lvl 7: Propoganda Machine - Allows (build yet to be named) - Reduces War Weariness, provides more happiness)

Lvl 8: Den of Iniquity (new wonder) Increases luxury trade, luxury output, tax base

Lvl 9: Advanced Criminology - Allows Police Stations

Lvl 10: Espionage - Allows spy actions

And now, I'm back to the editor....

-=Vel=-

	06-07-2002 12:08									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Just wanted to add my voice to the mix and say that I think it's a great idea!

It should be very interesting to see how the CIV3 AI handles our CB rules I can't wait to get my hands on what you guys are doing!

	06-07-2002 13:14									#25
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Just remember to post the updated version here or email it to me so I can carry on from were you left off.

Are you still working on it ...

* FrustratedPoet checks watch.


It should be 4am for you, so I assume you've forgotten, but your last post was made at 2am.
Up late tonight?

* FrustratedPoet taps microphone.

"Hello? Is this thing on...?"

* FrustratedPoet goes to play some Warcraft 3 while he waits.

	06-07-2002 13:18									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Infrastructure Bresearch: Lvl 1: Basic Bresearch Lvl 7: Advanced Bresearch

My contributions to this project might be small, but they're EVERYWHERE.

	06-07-2002 13:35									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

*small, weary voice*
Oh...4am is it? Hmmm....dang...and yes, you're right. I kinna lost track of time!

Okay...right then...I'm going to save my work off, and attach it here for you to look at.

I have no idea if it even works....I've not tested it since doing the tech trees. *Gulp*

BUT....the tech trees, all improvements, and all wonders/minor wonders (not that there are many) are now in the game.

I'm sure the little tech research screen looks like refried crap about now, cos I noted that the little research boxes are all aligned with x, y coordinates....and they're off kilter by about a country mile now....*shrug* I don't even begin to pretend to know how to fix that. All I know is that the techs are done. Three linear trees, just like in CB. The basic unit types are done, but none of the upgrades exist yet....I just....ran outta gas tonight...LOL

Anyway, here comes the file....
-=Vel=-

Attachment: candlebremod.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	06-07-2002 13:37									#28
	Tired of ads?

Well done!

At least it is Saturday today.

Well done, am downloading now...

Will report back later.

	06-07-2002 21:48									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Up for air...whew....well, I'm glad to see there are more nods in favor, and so far, no nods against the notion.

You're all so lucky GP is on a extendaban.

	06-07-2002 22:56									#30
	Support Apolyton

Ahhh....just a little something to have some fun with...

Oh man....but just now, it doesn't feel much like fun!

I dunno what the heck I did to my poor, mistreated bic file, but now, when I go to build my first city, the game craps out on me....GRRRR....near as I can tell, it's got something to do with the changes I made to the tech tree....*sigh* and it's hopelessly snarled, at this point. That's what I get for pretending to be a modder I suppose...lol...ah well, I'll fiddle with it some more and see if I can make it work by hook or crook....

-=Vel=-