06-07-2002 18:54									#1
	Monarch names - do other countries do this? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In Finland, there's an odd custom. Foreign monarchs aren't referred to by names their own countries use, but their names are sort of "Finlandized" - all those pesky foreign letters cleaned off and name made to look more like a Finnish name. Thus, in Finland, Swedish king is known as Kaarle XVI Kustaa instead of Carl Gustav XVI, English queen is Elisabeth II instead of Elizabeth II, and so on. Prince Charles is still Charles, since Lissie hasn't kicked the bucket yet, but when she does, he'll become King Kaarle the... well, I don't know how-manieth.

It's only applied to Western monarchs, of course, and presidents are spared (Although some early history books referred to George Washington as Yrjö Washington, Yrjö being the equivalent of George for some ungodly reason*) but it's an odd custom. Do other countries do that? (I'm starting to suspect it's just a devious way to put those Finnish double vocals in names of innocent royalty.)

*: Since 'yrjö' is also a slang term for puke, it could be worthwhile to reintroduce this custom with U.S. presidents, too, at least until the end of this presidency.

	06-07-2002 19:03									#2
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Australians call Queen Elizabeth II a cloth-eared bint - well, we republicans do - but that's probably something altogether different to what you're asking.

In general, Australians would use as close an approximation to the real name as possible. Not that too many Australians would know the names of too many foreign monarchs. Certainly, our media would use the real names.

I suspect what you're talking about is a Finnish conspiracy, Stefu. Yet another one. Now cut it out, will you?

	06-07-2002 19:12									#3
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I just want to know if we're the only ones going about in our conspiratorial ways.

	06-07-2002 19:18									#4
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It is done, sometimes. We could adress to English kings as Karl VIXIXII but also the Charles version of it, it doesn't really matter. Nowadays, most people use the original name for it though, but sometiems names do still get transferred into German.

I know the Roman number thing is messed up, Iwas merely making fun of the amount of Charles' in England.

	06-07-2002 19:20									#5
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For former monarchs we seem to, but not current ones - for example kings Ferdinand and John of Aragon, while the current Spanish monarch is called Juan Carlos.

	06-07-2002 19:24									#6
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Ferdinand... isn't he called Ferdinand in just every language?

Does anyone else know pope Jan Pavel II?

	06-07-2002 19:28									#7
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Whoops, bad example

	06-07-2002 19:29									#8
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...apart from Portuguese, but I mean it as in real language, not some barbarian babble.

So hebrew doesn't count either

	06-07-2002 19:30									#9
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In Finland, he's Johannes Paavali II...

Hm. "John" in old English king names was translated as "Juhana", but "John" in Pope's name is "Johannes". I wonder what moden King John of England would be.

Only one way to find out. Prince William (who would become King Vilhelm, presumably) must name his son 'John'.

	06-07-2002 19:32									#10
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Sometimes some books translate foreign names to hebrew, but it is mostly for laughs.

Like calling michael jackson - mihael yaakov or something.

	06-07-2002 19:33									#11
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Well, it's Johannes Paul to us, John Paul to the treacherous anglo-saxons, Jan Pavel to the Poles, Juan Pablo to the Spics etc etc. King names get translated less frequently than pope names, I'm certain.

As for Russians, the same. All of them get translated... but then, Ivans are still Ivans ot Johannesses, so that's not quite correct either.

Even more interesting question: what is the czar/tsar called in your country?

	06-07-2002 19:39									#12
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'Tsaari'.

Individually, they're Iivanas and Paavalis and Pietaris.

Say, what about Biblical names? In Finland, there was Jeesus, who was given birth by Maaria, and whose disciples included people like Pietari and Juudas, whose doctrine was effectively spread by Paavali, and who had Gospels written about him by Matteus, Markus, Luukas and Johannes.

	06-07-2002 19:43									#13
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Jesus, Maria, Josef, Petrus (only in the bible though, later: Peter (Zaren and boys )), Judas, Paulus (later Paul), Gospels, Matthäus (later name: Matthias) , Lukas, Johannes.

It's odd how Johannes doesn't translate into Finnish. should be Jonni or something like that

	06-07-2002 19:46									#14
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Johannes is a perfectly fine, if old-sounding, Finnish name.

	06-07-2002 19:47									#15
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LOL

It's German

	06-07-2002 20:14									#16
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So? Are you saying Germans invented all of their own names by themselves?

	06-07-2002 20:24									#17
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We pretty much keep monarch names in their native tongues, except in those times when we want to mock the Monarch by making his name more familiar (Kaiser Bill).

However, it is not consistent, as the further back you go in history, the more we tend to Anglicize monarch names. Of course, I don't think many students would want to be made to learn about Frederic der Grosse

	06-07-2002 20:33									#18
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BTW, Finland strongly considered monarchy in 1918. In fact the monarch-to-be had already been chosen from Germany, but Germany lost the war, and dreams of monarchy were abandonded. If monarchy had managed to go through, King's name would have been "Väinö I"

Considering that has two letters most languages don't have, how would have they managed it? "Vaino I" would roughly mean "Persecution I" in Finnish, and I'm dreading Americans would have twisted it to "Wayne I"...

	06-07-2002 20:33									#19
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Chinese does it with every single foreign city, country, or human name that is not in Chinese.

reason being that the Chinese writing system doesn't allow for the integration of foreign elements very well.

	06-07-2002 20:34									#20
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I read somewhere that Prince Charles will have a sneaky name change when he ascends to the throne, due to the bad vibes given off by every King Charles thus far...

	06-07-2002 20:35									#21
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Oh, great. Doubtlessly he'll become King Dweezil I or something, and try translating that into Finnish.

	06-07-2002 20:38									#22
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I doubt it'll be anything so radical. George, perhaps...

	06-07-2002 20:41									#23
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Good. It is the job of English monarchy to amuse Finnish schoolchildren, after all.

	06-07-2002 20:45									#24
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I think he'll stay Charles, because in this day and age, folks don't care about the previous ones.

At least he's not Richard or John...

	06-07-2002 21:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion It is done, sometimes. We could adress to English kings as Karl VIXIXII but also the Charles version of it, it doesn't really matter. Nowadays, most people use the original name for it though, but sometiems names do still get transferred into German. I know the Roman number thing is messed up, Iwas merely making fun of the amount of Charles' in England.

There's only been two King Charles' in England. There's been eight Henrys and eleven Edwards, however.

	06-07-2002 21:18									#26
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Old Chuck intends to become King George VI on his accession to avoid confusion with unpopular Charles's of history.

He's missing the point that one George was mad, another was fat, perverted and bigamous, another had syphilis and another couldn't speak English.

	06-07-2002 22:06									#27
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He won't get to the throne anyway.

	06-07-2002 22:30									#28
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Well Laz, it was basically the usage of Roman numbers and the ridiculously large amount of guys that the

Charles -> George? That's laughable. Chinese cities are always spelled different in German as well. their capital for example was Peking for ages, nowadays it's Beijing

	06-07-2002 22:32									#29
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Forget not that Berlin is Berliini, London is Lontoo, Rome is Rooma, Paris is Pariisi, Copenhagen (Köpenhamn) is Kööpenhamina.

	06-07-2002 22:34									#30
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And Beijing is Peking. Some people talk about Beijing when speaking Finnish, something I can not approve. It's Peking goddammit!