13-07-2002 10:35									#31
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Nathan,

I agree that the goal in the Science trial is to become a research juggernaut, but I don't think that means overly limiting the rest of game play. We obviously don;t want the strategy to be limiting all other civs to 1 city, but I think disallowing intercontinental invasions is overdoing it. I've been struggling with this... any other ideas?

Re: Resource Poor, I was very tempted last night to jump into the July thread and ask if it would be OK to use that game for AU. I 'cheated' a little and read the spoilers, and it became clear that it wasn't quite a match.

BTW, if AU does get going, we will then have 3 concurrent group games... if it's OK with everyone involved, I'd like to somehow reduce that to 2. MY suggestion would be (hope no one is offended), the mini-tourneys go away, and we have the unoffical Aplyton tournament and the AU trials.

	13-07-2002 11:17									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus BTW, if AU does get going, we will then have 3 concurrent group games... if it's OK with everyone involved, I'd like to somehow reduce that to 2. MY suggestion would be (hope no one is offended), the mini-tourneys go away, and we have the unoffical Aplyton tournament and the AU trials.

We might also be able to find an AU game that could double as the main August tournament, which would further reduce the number of distinct games. My first thought is that the "Golden Age" game would be the best Monarch-level fit, or the "Naval Power" game if enough players feel ready for the jump to Emperor in the main tournament (and if AU players don't mind the extra restrictions that more general tourney players aren't subject to), largely because they are on standard maps.

By the way, I'm really not interested in a culture flipping game. It's hard to imagine being particularly successful in it without fairly frequent palace moves (at least compared with what someone who moves the palace a lot could accomplish), and the idea of moving my palace all the time just "doesn't feel right" to me.

Nathan

	13-07-2002 21:47									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus BTW, if AU does get going, we will then have 3 concurrent group games... if it's OK with everyone involved, I'd like to somehow reduce that to 2. MY suggestion would be (hope no one is offended), the mini-tourneys go away, and we have the unoffical Apolyton tournament and the AU trials.

Seems quite reasonable, since the mini-tourneys and the AU seem to have essentially the same goal, of everyone discussing the strategies involved in the game and comparing different approaches. (You can also do this in the tourney games of course, but they also have the competitive element). In practice the recent MT games seem to be selected because they pose (hopefully) interesting and unusual challenges, and MTiv seems to be exactly the kind of philosphy that the AU is meant to be - a (perhaps contrived) situation that is meant to test a certain aspect of your game play. So you could eqully well say that the MT series is renamed to being the AU games.

	14-07-2002 14:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus BTW, if AU does get going, we will then have 3 concurrent group games... if it's OK with everyone involved, I'd like to somehow reduce that to 2. MY suggestion would be (hope no one is offended), the mini-tourneys go away, and we have the unoffical Aplyton tournament and the AU trials.

No complaint here. The last 2 minitourneys already were thematical ones. Both have the goal to learn and compare strategies rather than to compete. I think the Apolytonian University will be a good successor of the Minitourneys.

	14-07-2002 22:22									#35
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Nathan, you bring up an interesting point re the culture trial. I hadn;t thought of using the Palace so aggressively... I don;t know if I'll do that, but I'd be interested to see someone do that. For instance, I can see an aggressive warmonger generating 'too many' GLs (which usually get thron into Armies or Factories), and choosing instead to repeatedly relocate the Palace (although maybe not... why wait for a flip when you can attack instead).

Anyway, I had envisioned the use of OTHER culture-generating buildings, and purposeful city placement.

If this trial, or any others, don;t make sense, PLEASE speak up.

SInce the July tournament was pretty similar to Exploration, does anyone have a preference for another theme for the first AU game?

Nathan votes for Golden Age or Naval Power... I think we should wait on the patch for Naval Power (no real reason), but I would back doing Golden Age.

In fact, if I don;t hear stong objection by tonight (I know, sort timeline, but...), I'm gonna go for it.

	15-07-2002 08:27									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Nathan, you bring up an interesting point re the culture trial. I hadn;t thought of using the Palace so aggressively... I don;t know if I'll do that, but I'd be interested to see someone do that. For instance, I can see an aggressive warmonger generating 'too many' GLs (which usually get thron into Armies or Factories), and choosing instead to repeatedly relocate the Palace (although maybe not... why wait for a flip when you can attack instead).

I was under the impression that keeping the palace close to the cities you're trying to flip was a well-known standard strategy for a "How many cities can I flip?" game. And if the moves are relatively small, they can be done the "hard" way, although it does take a while. (I've never tried such a strategy myself, but I followed the idea in posts from others a few months ago.)

quote: Nathan votes for Golden Age or Naval Power... I think we should wait on the patch for Naval Power (no real reason), but I would back doing Golden Age.

What I was suggesting those two for is games that could potentially do double-duty as AU games and August tourney games, not as games to go for first. Indeed, doing one of those first would preclude using it for the August tourney later.

Nathan

	15-07-2002 08:49									#37
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I've been playing the current CivFanatics Game of the Month for the last couple days, and it's a GOOD one. If anyone wants a nice Emperor-level challenge, I think it most certainly qualifies. (I hate to steal thunder from the AU series, but I also hate to see people miss an opportunity to learn just because it comes from elsewhere.) One warning: it's on a large map, albeit with a relatively small number of civs.

Below is the full description from the CivFanatics GOTM page:

· Civilization: Egyptians
· Difficulty Level: Emperor
· Map Size: Large
· Land Form: Archipelago
· Land mass: Normal (70% water)
· Rivals: 6 Random Rivals
· Climate: Wet
· Temperature: Warm
· Age: 4 billion years
· Barbarians: Roaming
· Other: Culturally linked starting positions off

	15-07-2002 10:07									#38
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So do we use your settings for each challenge and start a game? Or do we download a save game file? If so, where is it?

	15-07-2002 12:01									#39
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As Theseus said, all start from the same savegame. The plan was initially, to use a new mod for the games, the Apolyton mod, yet to create. But I'm afraid, if we do so, the AU start might be delayed for long.

	15-07-2002 12:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I was under the impression that keeping the palace close to the cities you're trying to flip was a well-known standard strategy for a "How many cities can I flip?" game.

Yup. It's actually pretty fun to watch the flips after moving your palace -- a dramatic palace relocation (from one end of an empire to another) can generate a cascade of 3 or 4 flips in little more than a dozen turns. Does require fairly frequent warmongering in order to move the palace (I haven't done it the hard way either).

Theseus - I suggest you simply post a game - the temptation will be too much and people will download and play regardless of any potential objections

Catt

	16-07-2002 04:38									#41
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OK, got it Nathan. Let's do Golden Age in August.

I select.... Crowding & War for the first AU trial!!!

(Should make people happy)

I'll generate the game and start a new thread for it.

	22-07-2002 04:54									#42
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The first AU trial, 101, obviates the need for what was originally listed as #10: Resources and Capitols.

I shoulda thought of that...

Anyway, we need something fun to do with Germany.

Any suggestions? Sir Ralph?

	22-07-2002 14:58									#43
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There are some interesting challenges left out.

1 - At a standard non-pangea map: Win the game by conquest without entering the industrial age. Note, the AI is allowed to enter it, but this makes your conquest harder, think of Cavalries vs. Riflemen or even Infantries. That would be a good challenge with the Germans.

2 - Win by conquest or domination without doing own research (slider always at 0%). Gold star - win without generating a single beaker (no scientist either) and without building the Great Library. This one could be challenging, because you'll never have a lead over the AI and will always fight with equal or even inferior units. Non-scientific civ, of course.

3 - (already described above) - Terrain development. Be the first civ with tanks. Gold Star for those who are the first civ entering the industrial age. Small, continents, 70% water, temperate, dry, young (3 bill years), Emperor, AI civs are America, China, Egypt, France and Persia. They are all industrious and have a big advantage on the rough map settings. Our civ: India

	22-07-2002 17:19									#44
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#2 is inspired.

	22-07-2002 21:33									#45
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For number 2, I really hope the other civs are close so by the time the archers comes knocking down they wont be obsolete, and also Gold Star for those who build the most GW since you're not researching.

I would suggest a small map for this.


Number 1 is just a tamer version of number 2, but I'm interested to see how this would work. We stop researching just before we hit the Industrial Age and we refuse any trade deals envolving tech from that era. Is that how it would work or what?

	22-07-2002 22:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by W4r_Machine Number 1 is just a tamer version of number 2, but I'm interested to see how this would work. We stop researching just before we hit the Industrial Age and we refuse any trade deals envolving tech from that era. Is that how it would work or what?

Yes. You aren't allowed to enter the industrial age, but the AI is. Actually, this is about a conquest of your own continent with Archers, Swordsmen, Horsemen and Knights, and of the other continents with Knights and Cavalry. If you wait too long, the AI will have Riflemen or even Infantries, and your job gets harder and harder. It's for ultra-warmongers.

	22-07-2002 22:34									#47
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Just catching up on my reading here....agreed. Three concurrent games is prolly one too many. I'll finish up my work on MT V, and not take that series any further. But...I think we stand a good chance of sending the MT series off with a bang....

-=Vel=-

	22-07-2002 22:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Yes. You aren't allowed to enter the industrial age, but the AI is. Actually, this is about a conquest of your own continent with Archers, Swordsmen, Horsemen and Knights, and of the other continents with Knights and Cavalry. If you wait too long, the AI will have Riflemen or even Infantries, and your job gets harder and harder. It's for ultra-warmongers.

Gotcha!

I'm gonna start practcing on a tiny Map to see how far I could go before crashing and burning

All AU games are on Emperor...yes?

	22-07-2002 22:59									#49
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As far as I know, Monarch and Emperor are the AU difficulty levels.

	07-08-2002 03:19									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Theseus asked my opinion for the next AU, and I'll tell you what I told him: I want a low-landmass archipelago, w/less than max civs (standard/arch/80%, 5 rivals). I've been toying with those settings lately. -Arrian

Which theme?

Do we dare play... ENGLISH??!!

8. Naval Power

Goal: Rule the seas. Must build AND use at least 1 of every naval unit until the win. Must build at least 10 Privateers. Gold star for innovative use of MoWs, subs, blockades & interdiction.

Settings: Standard, archipelago, 70% water, 7 civs, temperate, dry, restless, Emperor. All win types.

Civ: English

Notes: Hmmm, if you rule the seas, what does that mean for intercontinental invasions?
______________________________

I'm fine with replacing the settings with Arrian's. I would also, in this case, suggest leaving cultural settings on.

Any takers?

	07-08-2002 03:53									#51
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*Nerd alexman can't wait for class to start*

I would suggest these opponents:

The French, to test the new Musketeer stats, and to make sure last game's dominance was not a fluke. See if you can invade these guys in the middle ages!

The Romans, to see if they manage to get any culture with the new build preferences, or if they melt away as usual.

The Greeks, who are the French of ancient times (difficult to invade).

The Babylonians. To get a religious opponent. Don't invade them unless you match their culture!

	07-08-2002 04:16									#52
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Interesting selections... need one more (Arrian said 5 rivals).

On another note, that will make 4 out of 6 civs commercial!

	07-08-2002 05:09									#53
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Well lets make the last civ India then!

No, seriously, I thought commercial would be good for this map, since there will be more corruption (less civs = more cities per civ, and archipelago = more distance between cities).

I was joking about India - I had enough of Ghandi from last game. I can't think of a good reason to choose another civ. The Zulu perhaps? To see if just adding production without culture helps them at all.

	07-08-2002 05:43									#54
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Hmmm...

I'm looking less at the build pref. changes, and more at the UUs. You've got 3 strooong defenders... how about an attacker?

Persia?

	07-08-2002 05:48									#55
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Why not the Persians? Struggling against their immortals in a close start would be fun, especially if we play England.

Or, if you want a more peaceful civ, we could take on the Americans. Since they are exp. on an archipelago map, they will get to map making pretty fast and then swarm almost everywhere...

Your choice, I'll play either!!

--Kon--

	07-08-2002 05:50									#56
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Good point... we should have at least one expansionist civ given the map.

	07-08-2002 05:52									#57
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Actually, Zulu might be cool, although "Ah pity da poor fool" Impis who have to take on Rome and Greece.

	07-08-2002 12:22									#58
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An expansionist/militarist on an archipelago map? Are you kidding, Theseus? The Zulus would be absolutely doomed, as both traits are godawful bad on island maps.

	07-08-2002 17:41									#59
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Uh, sorry, don't know where my head was.

	07-08-2002 18:29									#60
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The Americans, not the Zulu.

I shudder at the thought of playing the English. I know, I know, this is the type of map they were supposedly made for. But I've found that the French excel on archipelago maps. I just finished such a game (me France vs. England, India, Egypt, America, Persia).

But it's supposed to be hard, I guess. But if we're playing the English, I humbly request that we drop down to Monarch.

-Arrian