11-07-2002 10:09									#61
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While I would like to believe that we are tolerant and understanding, there are other theories regarding Canadians.

A recent book compared Canada now to the US just prior to the Civil War. The author suggested that just like Dixie, Quebec is being faced with a declining portion of our total population while still trying to maintain their historical level of influence which is huge. Under this theory Quebec is on a collision course with the rest of the country. This would go part way to explaining the seemingly increasing level of regionalization and interprovincial disputes.

I hope that the author is wrong.

	11-07-2002 10:09									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Asher No, the crime RATE in major cities (Vancouver, Toronto) is still a fraction of the US major cities of the same size.

I remember being warned of Vancouver much more than I was warned of Seattle.

Some of the US issues with crime comes from growing pains because so many new people want to come here.

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:11									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I remember being warned of Vancouver much more than I was warned of Seattle. Some of the US issues with crime comes from growing pains because so many new people want to come here. Jon Miller

Vancouver is one of the more crime ridden cities in Canada, but IIRC they have 1.5M people and 30-40 murders a year?

Anyway, Calgary has 1M people and 5-6 murders a year.

	11-07-2002 10:11									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller but see they want to become american (so apparently few want to become canadians?) Jon Miller

But that has happened because you created a national mythology.

As well, the United States was built on the idea that people could immigrate there and leave their old identities behind while accepting a new country. Canada was largely populated by British immigrants until the 1970s. These people maintained their national identities and links to Britain. The non-British immigrants, such as my ancestors, were not even accepted as Canadian citizens.

Yes, this does conflict with the question of tolerance, but this reflects the maturing of our nation. In many ways, Canadians were much less tolerant of non-British newcomers before the 1960s.

	11-07-2002 10:12									#65
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred While I would like to believe that we are tolerant and understanding, there are other theories regarding Canadians. A recent book compared Canada now to the US just prior to the Civil War. The author suggested that just like Dixie, Quebec is being faced with a declining portion of our total population while still trying to maintain their historical level of influence which is huge. Under this theory Quebec is on a collision course with the rest of the country. This would go part way to explaining the seemingly increasing level of regionalization and interprovincial disputes. I hope that the author is wrong.

I would be interesting in hereing more about this

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:12									#66
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Jon:
http://www.gunsandcrime.org/miscstdi.html

quote: In November, 1988, the NEJM had a report on a "study" by Sloan, Kellermann, Reay, and a long list of other doctors at the U. of Washington Dept of Surgery. The report was titled "Handgun regulations, crime, assaults, and homicide: A tale of two cities." (well read, aren't they?) The study consisted of examination of rates of various types of crimes in Seattle, Washington and Vancouver, British Columbia from 1980 through 1986. They found that Seattle had about a 16 percent higher rate of aggravated assault (i.e., with weapon or injury), but that the rate of assault with guns was about 7 times higher. The homicide rate--adjusted for age and sex but not race, economic status, or differences in health care systems--was about 1.28 to 2.08 times higher in Seattle. They reported that virtually all of the excess risk in Seattle was "explained by a 4.8-fold higher risk of being murdered with a handgun in Seattle. We conclude that restricting access to handguns may reduce the rate of homicide in a community."

	11-07-2002 10:12									#67
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The willingness to tolerate different beliefs leads to an acceptence for debate

The idiot's right.

	11-07-2002 10:13									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Vancouver is one of the more crime ridden cities in Canada, but IIRC they have 1.5M people and 30-40 murders a year? Anyway, Calgary has 1M people and 5-6 murders a year.

I think total crime is a better statistic

not murders

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:13									#69
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Fun graphs:

Homicide rate per 100,000 people per year:

	11-07-2002 10:14									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I think total crime is a better statistic not murders Jon Miller

How do you measure total crime?

	11-07-2002 10:16									#71
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An aside, but crime rates in Vancouver may be higher than anywhere else in the country. We are a major port city, so there are more drugs available. We also have relatively mild winters and as a result we are home to a disproportionate amout of transiants. Longstanding problems with Federal immigration screening has meant that several ethnic-based gangs exist and operate in Vancouver.

	11-07-2002 10:17									#72
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The willingness to tolerate different beliefs leads to an acceptence for debate The idiot's right.

we tolerate beleifs here in the south

and have debates

we just do not get as catty about it

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:17									#73
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Jon,here's another fun fact: the population of Canada is more urbanised than the US, yet our total violent crime rate is ~80% of yours (source is the Montreal Gazette about 2 months ago).

And considering that our immigration rate is 60% higher than yours, this:

quote: Some of the US issues with crime comes from growing pains because so many new people want to come here

is not a valid explanation.

	11-07-2002 10:18									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai But that has happened because you created a national mythology. As well, the United States was built on the idea that people could immigrate there and leave their old identities behind while accepting a new country. Canada was largely populated by British immigrants until the 1970s. These people maintained their national identities and links to Britain. The non-British immigrants, such as my ancestors, were not even accepted as Canadian citizens. Yes, this does conflict with the question of tolerance, but this reflects the maturing of our nation. In many ways, Canadians were much less tolerant of non-British newcomers before the 1960s.

and some day, in the future, you will reach the US's level of maturity

I think you are heading there

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:18									#75
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Meanwhile in the states:

Murder rate per 100,000 people
Washington 69.3
Philly 27.4
Dallas 27.8
LA 22.8
Chicago 20.5
Pheonix 19.1
Houston 18
NY city 16.8

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...3000/153988.stm

	11-07-2002 10:19									#76
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quote: and some day, in the future, you will reach the US's level of maturity I think you are heading there Jon Miller

God help us if we reach your level of political apathy...I mean maturity.

	11-07-2002 10:20									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Meanwhile in the states: Murder rate per 100,000 people Washington 69.3 Philly 27.4 Dallas 27.8 LA 22.8 Chicago 20.5 Pheonix 19.1 Houston 18 NY city 16.8 http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...3000/153988.stm

1.41 in Calgary, 69.3 in Washington DC? Holy ****.

New York's is surprisingly low, "only" at 16.8...

	11-07-2002 10:20									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller we tolerate beleifs here in the south and have debates we just do not get as catty about it

I distinctly remember using a marker of some sort in that post.

However, catty? Yes, we get catty, but what would you call your recent presidential election and the 'debate' surrounding it?

	11-07-2002 10:20									#79
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Jon,here's another fun fact: the population of Canada is more urbanised than the US, yet our total violent crime rate is ~80% of yours (source is the Montreal Gazette about 2 months ago). And considering that our immigration rate is 60% higher than yours, this: quote: Some of the US issues with crime comes from growing pains because so many new people want to come here is not a valid explanation.

but we are less picky about who gets in (admittedly not always are choice because we ahve such porous borders)

also, where did you get that immegration statistic? it does not seem right

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:21									#80
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The reason that murder rates are used to measure crime is because of reporting difficulties with other crimes. A murder will almost always get reported, but you would be surprised about the amount of other crime that doesn't get reported to the cops including major property crime and even assult and rape. In some countries domestic violence as an example, simply does not get reported.

	11-07-2002 10:23									#81
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quote: but we are less picky about who gets in (admittedly not always are choice because we ahve such porous borders)

You're less picky than us? Hah!

quote: also, where did you get that immegration statistic? it does not seem right

Look it up...

60% higher is a low estimate. IIRC, We have ~200 000 immigrants per year, you have ~1 million. Your population is 9 times ours...

	11-07-2002 10:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I distinctly remember using a marker of some sort in that post. However, catty? Yes, we get catty, but what would you call your recent presidential election and the 'debate' surrounding it?

OK, the last presidential ellection was pretty bad, most agree with that

but the candidates still refrained from name calling and the like

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: but we are less picky about who gets in (admittedly not always are choice because we ahve such porous borders) You're less picky than us? Hah! quote: also, where did you get that immegration statistic? it does not seem right Look it up... 60% higher is a low estimate. IIRC, We have ~200 000 immigrants per year, you have ~1 million. Your population is 9 times ours...

you are not counting illegals

which put us far above your levels

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:25									#84
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred Longstanding problems with Federal immigration screening has meant that several ethnic-based gangs exist and operate in Vancouver.

That's a bit out of date isn't it. I thought there are less problems with gang members being allowed into Canada now a days.

For example, there is the case of a Hong Kong actor who produced and starred in the biggest local movie last year. He was denied entry into Canada because of apparent triad links.

	11-07-2002 10:26									#85
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: and some day, in the future, you will reach the US's level of maturity I think you are heading there Jon Miller God help us if we reach your level of political apathy...I mean maturity.

being civilised does not equal apathetic

while I might agree that the US is too apathetic, I refuse to beleive that is a result of the more civilised nature of our political conflicts

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:26									#86
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New thread on murder rates: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=55412

	11-07-2002 10:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Asher 1.41 in Calgary, 69.3 in Washington DC? Holy ****. New York's is surprisingly low, "only" at 16.8...

I live in the DC metro area now....

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:27									#88
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Jon, you have no idea what you're talking about. Over long term, illegals are either absorbed as legals or deported. They have no long-term effect on actual immigration rates.

Plus, you'll find that immigrants actually commit less crimes per capita than native born Americans do...

	11-07-2002 10:27									#89
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True Jon. We have a far higher rate of legal immigration than the States but I believe the US has a far higher rate of illegal immigration. But I doubt that the total rate for the US is higher.

	11-07-2002 10:27									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller OK, the last presidential ellection was pretty bad, most agree with that but the candidates still refrained from name calling and the like Jon Miller

Oh come on. The attacks against Clinton were pretty vicious. Your election ads are far more below the belt than is accepted in Canada.