11-07-2002 10:28									#91
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Do not get me started on Canadian election campaigns!

	11-07-2002 10:29									#92
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quote: being civilised does not equal apathetic while I might agree that the US is too apathetic, I refuse to beleive that is a result of the more civilised nature of our political conflicts Jon Miller

Jon, your political parties are so close to each other that there's no reason for spirited debate. Their campaigns have nothing to do with anything of substance, because platforms have nothing to do with who gets elected in the US.

When we have a change of governments, there's a real, identifiable change in national policies.

	11-07-2002 10:29									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller OK, the last presidential ellection was pretty bad, most agree with that but the candidates still refrained from name calling and the like Jon Miller

Are you a communist, or have you ever been a member of...

	11-07-2002 10:31									#94
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I know many families where the parents came illegal to the US and thir kids (my age) were born here

the percentage is just going up

and while I know that the immegrants are not resposible for a lot of the crime, the assimiliation of the immegrants is still an issue (relating to culture)

also (as you know) a big issue is the problems relating to the US being heavily capitalistic

you are capitalistic also, just not as much

this part of the reason for the US higher crime rates is not an aspect of our discussion on political maturity

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:32									#95
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I don't trust the capitalistic part.

Calgary is the most capitalistic city in Canada, and has the lowest murder rate? It's also the fastest growing.

Capitalism has nothing to do with it.

	11-07-2002 10:33									#96
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quote: I know many families where the parents came illegal to the US and thir kids (my age) were born here the percentage is just going up

Jon, they get counted eventually. Whether it's the day they step off the boat or 10 years later makes no significant difference on the measurement of immigration rates.

	11-07-2002 10:33									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Oh come on. The attacks against Clinton were pretty vicious. Your election ads are far more below the belt than is accepted in Canada.

but our politicians do not engage in them

that is the difference between civilised behavior and uncivilised behavior, whether you do your own dirty work, or someone else does it for you (when it needs to be done)

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:34									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't trust the capitalistic part. Calgary is the most capitalistic city in Canada, and has the lowest murder rate? It's also the fastest growing. Capitalism has nothing to do with it.

it has to do with income disparity

which is the largest reason for crime and conflict in the US

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:35									#99
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quote: but our politicians do not engage in them that is the difference between civilised behavior and uncivilised behavior, whether you do your own dirty work, or someone else does it for you (when it needs to be done) Jon Miller

Like I said: false dignity. US politicians are all about style. They refuse to say what they think. Their speeches are exercises in blandness. Blech. It's duplicity.

	11-07-2002 10:37									#100
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Are you a communist, or have you ever been a member of...

hey, it took us a while to reach this level of civilised politicing

and we have farther to go (because politicing could be done with less dirty work)

but looking at the progressiong of things, you guys look like you are at where we were 137 years ago...

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:38									#101
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Having it done for you is far less civilized. If the job needs doing, have some courage for your convictions. Stand up and do it your self.

	11-07-2002 10:38									#102
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One thing that this thread has shown is that while Canadians will argue a lot among themselves, when faced with a challenge from outside, we tend to band together.

	11-07-2002 10:39									#103
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KH, I would disagree in part with your thoughts on US immigration. While your legalization or capture and send home idea is eventually true, it is a looking backwards way of including them. If the amount of illegals is large and growing, a forward-looking statistic will have to include them somehow in current rates.

	11-07-2002 10:39									#104
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quote: hey, it took us a while to reach this level of civilised politicing and we have farther to go (because politicing could be done with less dirty work) but looking at the progressiong of things, you guys look like you are at where we were 137 years ago... Jon Miller

Not at all. You're attempting to fit us into a mold that doesn't match. We aren't following your model; we're following our own.

	11-07-2002 10:40									#105
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse quote: but our politicians do not engage in them that is the difference between civilised behavior and uncivilised behavior, whether you do your own dirty work, or someone else does it for you (when it needs to be done) Jon Miller Like I said: false dignity. US politicians are all about style. They refuse to say what they think. Their speeches are exercises in blandness. Blech. It's duplicity.

they focus on the important stuff, their platform (what they think) and yes style is important in civilised discourse

the personal attacks are just saved for their associates to deliver because it would be uncivilised for them to do so

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:41									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai One thing that this thread has shown is that while Canadians will argue a lot among themselves, when faced with a challenge from outside, we tend to band together.

that was actually the point of this thread....

and to get a

Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:41									#107
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred KH, I would disagree in part with your thoughts on US immigration. While your legalization or capture and send home idea is eventually true, it is a looking backwards way of including them. If the amount of illegals is large and growing, a forward-looking statistic will have to include them somehow in current rates.

The only problem would be if they only get counted significantly later (long enough that population has grown by 20+%, for example) or if illegal immigration has spiked recently and we just haven't seen it yet. From what I understand, the illegal rate into the US has actually been declining for the last decade...

	11-07-2002 10:42									#108
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ah well

I am going to do some reading and then to bed

bye

peace,
Jon Miller

	11-07-2002 10:43									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller but looking at the progressiong of things, you guys look like you are at where we were 137 years ago...

We're far further ahead.

We live in a country that allows for everyone to be different.

We live in a country that can yell and scream and shout at each other, but guns are never a part of political debate (except for one brief flicker that was stomped on to universal acceptance).

We do not live in a perfect country, but I sure prefer it to most of the others I've heard tell about...

But now, as to your question about why Canadians are always fighting with each other...

We're tuning up for when some non Canadian comes a callin' looking for a fight.

	11-07-2002 10:44									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai That's a bit out of date isn't it. I thought there are less problems with gang members being allowed into Canada now a days. For example, there is the case of a Hong Kong actor who produced and starred in the biggest local movie last year. He was denied entry into Canada because of apparent triad links.

No. Problems still exist. Another professional style hit of a East Indian gang member last week. Another huge bust of the Big Circle gang this week. Along with the HK Triads, we also have Indo-Canadian and Honduras gangs problems.

	11-07-2002 10:44									#111
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quote: they focus on the important stuff, their platform (what they think) and yes style is important in civilised discourse

Your two parties are far, far, far closer together than ours are on the political spectrum. Their platforms are much less meaty, therefore, because they have less to distinguish themselves from each other.

The personal attacks are part of parliamentary democracy; they're termed "heckles", and are permissable under the rules of the House. They are a way to encourage lively debate and timely communications. Otherwise, the pols would just drone on for an hour and the discussion would never move forward. Like the situation you find in the US.

	11-07-2002 10:46									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I am going to do some reading and then to bed

Oh my. This is going to get ugly fast.

	11-07-2002 10:46									#113
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quote: Originally posted by RedFred No. Problems still exist. Another professional style hit of a East Indian gang member last week. Another huge bust of the Big Circle gang this week. Along with the HK Triads, we also have Indo-Canadian and Honduras gangs problems.

Okaym but how much of that is the result of new immigrants (i.e. people who arrived in Canada in the past five years) as opposed to people who got in before?

	11-07-2002 10:52									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Okaym but how much of that is the result of new immigrants (i.e. people who arrived in Canada in the past five years) as opposed to people who got in before?

Er... no idea.

A recent radio [yes I know, hardly scientific evidence] program suggested that legitimate immigrants are far better screened than queue-jumpers who falsely declare refugee status. We are far more tolerant than other countries for people who throw away all their documentation on a plane flight over here, then say they are refugees and have no documentation.

	11-07-2002 11:07									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai One thing that this thread has shown is that while Canadians will argue a lot among themselves, when faced with a challenge from outside, we tend to band together.

Think about that the next time you critize Americans when some Euro writes up a troll thread. Just because Americans tend to dislike outsiders harping on an aspect of the US, doesn't mean that we follow everything dictated from mount Washington. Unless what you are doing is following some foolish national pride.

	11-07-2002 11:09									#116
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There's a difference. This was a blanket criticism of Canadians, not an attack on a specific policy.

If you hadn't noticed, the presence of outsiders did nothing to unite us when we were discussing policies (Kyoto and Constitutional debates spring to mind). I have no problem with a foreigner disagreeing with my government and saying so openly. He may not have the right to vote for my government, but free speech applies to all...

	11-07-2002 11:11									#117
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Like if I start a thread asking why Americans are so ignorant and mindlessly patriotic, I can see why you would spring to your country's defence. If I start one complaining about US foreign policy, then you should not feel irked because a damned furrener is intrudin in yer doins.

	11-07-2002 11:12									#118
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dp

	11-07-2002 11:15									#119
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse There's a difference. This was a blanket criticism of Canadians, not an attack on a specific policy. If you hadn't noticed, the presence of outsiders did nothing to unite us when we were discussing policies (Kyoto springs to mind). I have no problem with a foreigner disagreeing with my government and saying so openly. He may not have the right to vote for my government, but free speech applies to all...

It's different Sprayber. We Canadians are so much better then everyone else. What we do is a sophisticated scientific tested form of nationalism as opposed to your emotional based lower form of nationalism.

	11-07-2002 11:18									#120
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I can't be arsed to remember what the code is for the snore smiley.

Spray, if you can't see the difference between criticising the character of a nation and criticising the policies of a government, then you're not as bright as I gave you credit for...