16-07-2002 09:18									#1
	Cheating the election Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I opened up the election poll for president today and found that Ninot was ahead by just one vote. Then it occured to me that I could easily determine who won the race (I think) even though I had already voted. What stops someone from making a different hotmail account and setting up a new Apolyton account and voting again, or even worse running for two positions and winning? Is there anyway that we can be sure people don't have multiple acounts, especially with programs that allow you to be anonymous online?

	16-07-2002 09:20									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

its a real problem, and there are suspicions that double logins DID effect this election in one way or the other.

We cant do much to fight it, unless we get another way to elect people.

	16-07-2002 09:24									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ninot We cant do much to fight it, unless we get another way to elect people.

Exactly.

I made a study of new members (yesterday?, since the page now displays 0 new registrations for 'today'). I came up with at least 20 candidates for DLhood (absolute minimum information entered or nearly, and 0 posts).

	16-07-2002 09:33									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Isn't there something involving IP addresses that allows the mods to determine whether an account is a DL? Anyway, I really hope people would not go to such trouble just for a position in a game on an internet forum.

	16-07-2002 09:44									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes they can Akron.

However, I don't think it is reasonable to expect that they (a very limited number of they) baby sit our elections and constitutional polls. They are kept quite busy elsewhere.

	16-07-2002 12:06									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If you are dialup customers of a big provider company with several large ranges of dynamic IP addresses, a new dialup will give you a completely different IP. Now, if you use a free national mail service outside the USA (IMHO Hotmail accounts are refused by the site), and there are plenty of them, and you disallow cookies, it should be possible to make as many Poly accounts as you want.

	16-07-2002 12:55									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

it definitely is. and if you use a public proxy or any other kind of "anonymizer" then you could easily also prevent the mods from detecting you. if you then change you account on weekly or daily base, you also have enough posts to not be detected.
=> no way to prevent it.

but another thing:
maybe some only joined apo for the demogame? and maybe some of them only watch for the beginning, until they get more informed?
just a try to explain this.


btw:
an even easier way would be to call for help to some other forum members to cast voted in the elections, even if they are no members and just dont care.
if you know 20 ppl, you could cast 20 additional votes ;-)

	16-07-2002 12:58									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Poly does accept hotmail now. They accepted my account. in Aug of last year.

	16-07-2002 15:00									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Are we going to assume that there are people, fellow brothers, that are such inbreed wretches that they would actually cheat in this game of ours. I would be far more willing to accept the fact that some other Poly users paid us a visit and voted just for the hell of it.

	16-07-2002 15:49									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree with Papa Chubby.

Anyway, let's not talk about cheating here.

Let's just face the fact that our present system has its flaws and see if we can improve it or come up with a better one.

	16-07-2002 17:59									#11
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markg investigated and found no signs of cheating

	16-07-2002 18:00									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

MarkG has a post on page 10 of the presidential election thread that talks about the poll briefly. You can see it here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...733#post1127733

	16-07-2002 18:20									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The Internet is like the real world, there's always someone trying to cheat, somewhere. But, in this case,

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 markg investigated and found no signs of cheating

We need to rush our Supreme Court.

	16-07-2002 18:47									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

And I agree whith Guardian:

quote: Originally posted by Guardian Let's just face the fact that our present system has its flaws and see if we can improve it or come up with a better one.

In a matter of fact, democracy isn't a perfect system, is just the better one. Democracy is good because it is always under construction, always being improved, and because we have the possibility to do this and change the things. In other systems this is not allowed.
Despite all this mess, the discussion comes out and it is good for all of us.

PS: My english isn't good, so you guys feel free to correct me. Hey! What I'm saying? You will probabily do that, with or without my approvation...

	16-07-2002 20:42									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think the election is really screwed up. It no longer shows who the Citizens want, as almost a hundred people from outside voted randomly.

	16-07-2002 20:53									#16
	Tired of ads?

Dear Skywalker.

There were not almost a 100 random entries by unknown entities from bastardvill. There were close to 40 , but that is not 100. Besides we have no stipulation in our constitution that states you have to be a member of the democracy game to have the right to vote.

	16-07-2002 20:55									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i dont think any candidates here are cheating. if they are, that would explain why im losing by so much

	16-07-2002 21:10									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Aro,
even most of us native english speakers don't do so well. Don't worry about it. In most instances, if someone doesn't understand what you are saying, they will ask for clarification.

Mark G has investigated. There is so far no indications of any cheating. There are no rules stating that someone has to be a member of the Demo. game in order to vote. Fine. We should in the future place a little 'blurb' asking people to not vote if they aren't a part of the demo game, with a link to the sign up so they can join if they want to. The more the better IMHO. For the 35-40 odd people who did vote who are not yet signed up, hopefully Mark G., our President, our our justices can contact them in the near future, asking them to join as appairently they had enough interest to follow the links and vote.

	16-07-2002 21:18									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Thanks, GodKing.
BTW, very good signature...

	16-07-2002 21:34									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

thanks. but FYI the first time i typed it in i had a typo. instead of "immortality", i typed in "immorality". neadless to say that is quite a slip on my part....Oops.

	16-07-2002 21:48									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Noncitizens not being able to vote is just common sense. Sort of like Canadians not choosing the American President.

	16-07-2002 22:31									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Skywalker,
Good point. In a lot of countries, noncitizes whith the status of 'residents" may vote in polls. But, after all, we don't have residents, only citizens, right? Unless we create this status (what will be a nonsense, why do this? Everybody is free to join, and as they can see, the game is very interesting and funny)
PS: I'm probably the oldest man in this game, and maybe Skywalker is the youngest. And I agree with him. This is interesting and funny, too. Don't talk to me about 'generation gap' anymore!!

	17-07-2002 00:12									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Aro, why sign up for residency if you can be a citizen and not post

PS: there are certain people here who just might be a few months younger than young skywalker...

	17-07-2002 00:29									#24
	Got spare money?

There isnt really any way to stop a person from voting if they arnt registered. So i dont think there is anything we can do. Unless the votes dont have polls, people would just post who they wanted to win. Then we would be able to check if they voter was a resident or not.

ps. im a whole half a year younger that mr. skywalker

	17-07-2002 00:45									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

well, i didnt register. am i a citizen?
i even set up the census polls.
do i need a passport?

	17-07-2002 00:47									#26
	Tired of ads?

well, maybe i could go thru as "ambassador of phoenatica"?

	17-07-2002 00:50									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

i think what the people are most concerned about is that some other users will just vote in the polls without reading any statements or taking time to think about it. basicly, they are just voting for the sake of voting. Whether they intend to or not, they could mess up the election.

	17-07-2002 00:51									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

jdd2007,
Yes, that's what I was saying. Or trying; as I said before, my english is very confused sometimes.
And, Mr. Trickey, I'm glad to see so much young people participating so deeply. My own boy (9 years old ) is very interested in the game, the little geek. He is learning english, and soon he will join us...

	17-07-2002 01:03									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Disorganizer is a citizen, registered or not. 139 posts, and he participates. Could this be a criterion?

	17-07-2002 01:09									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quick reply... something looks familar..

In CFC, we had an investigation on that problem. Also, there's another problem (Yes, I'll relent and tell you.). Anyone not on the forum can vote. Even someone from CFC/GC with an account here that can vote. That means, one of your members could have been placed by other Civ3 boards.