20-07-2002 04:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Fez, the camp David offer was nothing more than an insult. It actually offered LESS than was already agreed on in the Oslo accords.

Hahaha... hahaha... hahaha... Sorry... I just have to laugh at this terribly stupid remark. It offered more. Infact part of Jerusalem if I am not mistaken.

quote: And you just fell victim to the biggest political lie since Hitler claimd that the jews caused the treaty of versaille.

GET A LIFE.

	20-07-2002 05:06									#32
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Terribly stupid? I refer to it as literate. Look it up if you don't believe me.

	20-07-2002 05:36									#33
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" Suicide bombings or murdering Israeli civilians may have satisfied the primitive human instinct of vengence, but they generally hurt more rational goals such as nationhood, economic prosperity, and the peace."

I agree. The rock throwing teenagers were a much more effective symbol.

	20-07-2002 05:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Terribly stupid? I refer to it as literate. Look it up if you don't believe me.

It is stupid when you don't know what you are talking about...

	20-07-2002 07:07									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS " Suicide bombings or murdering Israeli civilians may have satisfied the primitive human instinct of vengence, but they generally hurt more rational goals such as nationhood, economic prosperity, and the peace." I agree. The rock throwing teenagers were a much more effective symbol.

Israel made rock-throwing almost as dangerous as picking up a gun in 2000...

	20-07-2002 10:50									#36
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I heard couple in interesting things about Clinton's final offer on the radio, but haven't been able to confirm it online. Apparently, offer included:

-NATO membership for Israel
-Fifteen billion (that's with a 'b', folks) dollars given to Israel to re-locate settlers out of the disputed territories
-Twenty billion (note the 'b') dollars to the Palestinian authority, to to build infrastructure and put the economy back on its feet.

If that's true, how much money would that have been for each Palestinian?

	20-07-2002 10:55									#37
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A lot. Too much to be believable, actually. 7000$

	20-07-2002 10:57									#38
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And Clinton can't offer unilateral NATO acceptance to the Israelis; he'd have serious trouble getting that past a majority of member countries.

	20-07-2002 17:16									#39
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From:
The Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip
Washington, D.C.
(September 28, 1995)

ARTICLE XI
Land
The two sides view the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as a single territorial unit, the integrity and status of which will be preserved during the interim period.


From iris.org (quoting Yediot Aharonot), the proposal presented at Camp David:
http://www.iris.org.il/eilat_talks.htm

From 'le Monde', the final proposal offered at Camp David according to palestinian negotiatior:
http://mondediplo.com/maps/israelit...proposals200012


Again I reiterate. Literacy. Marvelous ability when applied.

As I told CICSmaster when he messed up due to inadequate knowledge: I'm awaiting an apology.
Are you going to be bigger than him?

	20-07-2002 17:31									#40
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I am not going to concede to your foolish argument. The offer was more the generous. Previous offers before that one were not up for discussion.

	20-07-2002 20:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Ned: Huh, when I advocate putting the repsonisble ones to death the pro-israelis here scream like stuck pigs... I guess it is just the traditional pro-Israeli mindset: as long as it i done to arabs, anything is OK. If done to Israelis, it is outrageous.

CyberGnu, As you know, even the Israeli's have held Sharon partly responsible for the massacre's at the camps in 1982. Whether this amounts to a war crime - well the Dutch commander at Sebrenicia is similarly guilty. So is the French commander who refused to bring in airstrikes. Even Clinton stands accused in the massacre of the Serb town in Kosovo by the KLA after NATO's takeover. (Why Clinton and not the NATO commander?)

The French are on record that these "crimes" of omission not be subject to war crimes trials. However, if Sharon is eventually prosecuted for his "omissions" at the Lebanese camps, we should not have a double standard and let the responsible French, Dutch and American commanders get off for the massacres in Yugoslavia.

	20-07-2002 20:13									#42
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Here's the interesting thing about the situation on the street in Palestine, I don't think any of the forces involved want to see the workers take Arafat out. The US has studiously attempted to crush every workers' revolt since 1917. Hamas definaely doesn't want thing to move in another direction from its control. None of the surrounding countries would like to see the workers revolt, since these things tend to be virulently infectious.

However, Hamas might actually benefit from the workers' taking out the PA. The Iranian revolution started out as a democratic workers revolt. But because there was only one organization capable of organizing the Ayatollah's ended up defining the revolution. The same could happen here.

	20-07-2002 20:13									#43
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Nah Fez, the Pals have had enough of living under a regime of terror. I doubt they'd want to live under one of greed.

	20-07-2002 21:25									#44
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"Too much to be believable, actually."

Frogger: I would believe it. Maybe not those figures precisely, but on the same order of magnitude.

	20-07-2002 22:08									#45
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Really? I'd think that there would be an uproar about it. It seems to me that the US is willing to spend a lot of money helping its military allies, but not so much when helping people who they've not had the friendliest relationship with...

	20-07-2002 22:08									#46
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quote: It offered more.

Fez, you are a moron! Camp David was LESS than Oslo and everyone agrees with that!

	20-07-2002 22:10									#47
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um
actually I know many people who claim that Camp David offered more

Jn Miller

	20-07-2002 22:12									#48
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That Oslo?

They are all morons then! Didn't you read the news where it said Camp David offered 95% of the West Bank? As opposed to Oslo which offered ALL of the West Bank and Gaza.

I guess this really does prove the pro-Israeli media in the US, if some Americans actually believe this crap.

	20-07-2002 23:22									#49
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quote: As opposed to Oslo which offered ALL of the West Bank and Gaza

	21-07-2002 01:41									#50
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Fez, so you'd rather close your mind than admit you were wrong... Sad.


Ned, we went thought this one another thread. The French general IS under investigation, and we don't know the outcome of that yet. Furthermore, the failure to protect srebrenica came from fear of throwing away the life of the UN detatchment in a meaningless gesture. Serbian forces advanced in overwhelming force, and trying to stop them would according to teh commander at the scene have been futile.

The area commander is under investigation as to whether this view was indeed correct.


Sharon, on the other hand, let soliders under his command slaughter civilians. For just that, he should be hung next to Eichman.

However, in my post I referred to the recent deaths and hostilities. I assume that this quote:

quote: I hope the Pals themselves arrest their terrorist leaders and put them all to death not only for their crimes against humanity, but because of the suffering they have caused the people of Palestine.

does not refer to the massacre in 1982...

	21-07-2002 02:22									#51
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And what does this have to do with workers in Palestine getting pissed at Arafat?

	21-07-2002 04:02									#52
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Not much, started as a comment on Ned's remark two pages ago...

I don't think there will be a workers uprising in palestine. Arafats popularity might be down, but they are still far above the closest competitor...

	21-07-2002 05:43									#53
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I think they will start to realize terrorism accomplishes nothing and will have to accept a settlement no matter how poor it is. The Palestinian people are probably sick of seeing violence. I think it will end as they start to realize enough is enough.

	21-07-2002 07:06									#54
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They have endured 50 years... You really think they'll give up now?

	21-07-2002 07:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu They have endured 50 years... You really think they'll give up now?

Uh huh... and what did the Colombian people think when they elected Uribe? Enough is enough. They have endured a three or four decade civil war. They want somebody to end this now. And the Palestinians want somebody to end the violence with realistic means.

	21-07-2002 07:52									#56
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Fez, so you'd rather close your mind than admit you were wrong... Sad. Ned, we went thought this one another thread. The French general IS under investigation, and we don't know the outcome of that yet. Furthermore, the failure to protect srebrenica came from fear of throwing away the life of the UN detatchment in a meaningless gesture. Serbian forces advanced in overwhelming force, and trying to stop them would according to teh commander at the scene have been futile. The area commander is under investigation as to whether this view was indeed correct. Sharon, on the other hand, let soliders under his command slaughter civilians. For just that, he should be hung next to Eichman. However, in my post I referred to the recent deaths and hostilities. I assume that this quote: does not refer to the massacre in 1982...

CyberGnu, The Dutch commander surely had a radio. UN, particularly, US forces were only a call away.

No, on the suffering bit, I was refuring to the current suffering. Undoubtedly, if there are any Israeli's who deliberately killed Palestinian civilians obeying the law, well they should be put on trial. I understand some of the recent incidents are being investigated.

	21-07-2002 08:00									#57
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On the matter of a worker's revolt against Arafat - I suspect the hostility will instead be channeled to a challenger in the next election. Only if Arafat "arranges" to have that challenger killed, then there is a real possibility of a revolt.

This is why I was asking if there are any legitimate, non terrorist canidates to oppose Arafat. As I see it, Arafat is like Mayor Daley. He has a machine that turns out the vote. The opposition has no infrastructure at all.

Well, Milosovic even was voted out by a people disgusted with the suffering and humiliation he brought Serbia. There is still hope.

	21-07-2002 08:39									#58
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"It seems to me that the US is willing to spend a lot of money helping its military allies, but not so much when helping people who they've not had the friendliest relationship with..."

While true, simple math would dictate a fairly high price. We put in $3 billion a year to Israel, which could be drawn down over time, with an Israeli "peace dividend".

In addition, it would partially remove one of the sticking points in our relations with the Arab world (oil $), stabilize the politics of our ally, Jordan (trade $), and drastically reduce the influence of the Ayatollas in the region. Over time it would allow our military to do other things.

Considering all of this, $40 billion or whatever is a fairly paltry sum. Less than one-half of one percent of our annual GDP.

	21-07-2002 09:02									#59
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quote: While true, simple math would dictate a fairly high price. We put in $3 billion a year to Israel, which could be drawn down over time, with an Israeli "peace dividend"

I don't see US aid to Israel dropping just because they don't have to deal with suicide bombers.

	21-07-2002 09:04									#60
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The Israelis are still going to be spending whatever it is they spent on defense for the last thirty years, and it's still going to be untenable withoud your support...