22-07-2002 21:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Fez, if you can't be civil when you are wrong,

I am civil in my arguments but sometimes a bit too vivid.

quote: But if you can't be civil when you don't express yourself coherently, then you don't belong here.

SHUT UP! For once put a sock in it. It is not me who is the one who can't express myself but rather you. You throw out all of these pro-terrorist view points out and side with Palestinian terrorist organizations. I may not like Israel because of their lack of diplomacy and I certainly do not like the PLO for their terror campagin against innocent civilians but that does not make me incoherent. It is clear the situation will not be solved now or ever and there is no point in thinking optimistically because it will back fire. There will always be strife in this region and that is the way it is. Will it change? No it will not. Is there any sense in throwing out your arbitrary and sometimes idiotical opinions out? No there is not any sense at all in doing so. The complexity of this problem inwhich the media understates as a "crisis" is much more deep. Two groups of people who truely have shown time and time again they cannot live together... so why can't Israel protect itself and why can't the Palestinians live in peace? There is one simple yet complex reason to this whole problem and that is: hatred. Will it disappear because of one obviously misled person, you cybergnu, discuss it in such a manner showing that you clearly don't want Israel to exist? The problems will not disappear. Then the question arises and that is why do you so dearly want Israel wiped off the map because you are against them protecting themselves? Don't answer that.

quote: You are more than welcome to come back on this issue when you have decided to be an adult.

Then please regard yourself out the door.

	22-07-2002 22:27									#92
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quote: So, how did the palestinian civilians in those camps threaten Sharon? In the same way those evil jews threatened Hitler, perhaps?

I didn't realise Sharon visited the camps and killed the palestinians. Neither did he give an order to do so.

quote: Face it, siro... I can understand you defending Israels occupation... Israel has been feeding your doctored history all your life, and it doesn't make you a bad person becuase you are mislead.

This coming from a... what are you anyway, an american? I remember you were swedish some time ago?

I can't talk to you about doctored history since you consider the palestinian information ministry's version of camp david, which was rewritten, a year after the account as truth.

You also still hold on to your unbased decision that Sharon intended to kill civilians in Sabra and Shatilla.

You big ass scientist haven't proved any history being rewritten yet, though you expect me to feel warm and cuddly aobut you, since you are automatically skeptic of everything an Israeli tells you.

Isn't it nice to have a pseudo intellect?

quote: But defending sharons massacre of civilians is really beyond the pale. It was a crime against humanity, and if there is one people on earth that should hate it more than any else, it should be the jews....

Coming from a man whose memory is fond of quotes from Mein Campf

	22-07-2002 22:58									#93
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Gah!!!!

This is why I was reluctant to post this thread, cuz I knew it would devolve into general ME bashing. There are signs here the that Palestinian people are breaking out of the violence trap, and yet people still wanna discuss who's right and wrong!!

	22-07-2002 23:01									#94
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There are signs here the that Palestinian people are breaking out of the violence trap,

Unless the brewing rebellion you hint at goes against Hamas as well as the PA, I wouldn't break out the champagne just yet.

	22-07-2002 23:12									#95
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Even I want a rebellion to occur, an european conservative, wanting the Palestinian people to rise up against Arafat but will they join Hamas and other terror groups doing so? I certainly hope not. If they do the region will explode into all out war. If they don't then maybe there is a chance.

	23-07-2002 02:42									#96
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Fez, your lack of civility has nothing to do with your views. You could discuss the morality of baby sacrifices in a civil manner.

In this thread, however, I made a statement regarding the offer at camp david. You saw fit to insult me over it. I then proved my point.

A big man would have apologized for the insult. Not so from Fez.

Later on you decided to join the debate again, with a post about colombians. I didn't understand your point, so I asked you to clarify. Instead of doing so, you saw fit to insult me again.

And now, when called upon it, the answer is 'put a sock in it'.

Class Fez, real class.

If we're still posting on this board in ten years, maybe you've grown up by then.... One can only hope.

	23-07-2002 02:45									#97
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Fez, your lack of civility has nothing to do with your views. You could discuss the morality of baby sacrifices in a civil manner.

I do discuss with civility. Not a lack of it.

quote: In this thread, however, I made a statement regarding the offer at camp david. You saw fit to insult me over it. I then proved my point.

You proved nothing.

quote: A big man would have apologized for the insult. Not so from Fez.

What insult?

quote: Later on you decided to join the debate again, with a post about colombians. I didn't understand your point, so I asked you to clarify. Instead of doing so, you saw fit to insult me again.

It was called an inference. I was inferring people get sick of violence and want an end to it.

quote: And now, when called upon it, the answer is 'put a sock in it'.

No I didn't. I gave you a full and complete description of my views.

quote: Class Fez, real class.

You are not the one to judge when you yourself lack it.

quote: If we're still posting on this board in ten years, maybe you've grown up by then.... One can only hope.

And you should be thinking the same about yourself because you lack maturity? What else is new, the ignorant leftist ignores my entire post with that rather long explication of my views.

	23-07-2002 02:57									#98
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siro, he was the supreme commander of the area. He ordered the israeli soldiers not to interfere with the militia, and his only dfesne was 'I didn;t know they would massacre the camp inhabitants'.

Ackording to international law, this is not a defense.

quote: I can't talk to you about doctored history since you consider the palestinian information ministry's version of camp david, which was rewritten, a year after the account as truth.

So the israeli negotiatior Ben-Ami is a palestinian information minister?

	23-07-2002 03:02									#99
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Saleh Shahada, one of the senior Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip and one of the few Hamas leaders who survived the Intifada until now, was liquidated few minutes ago. 4 more men, his aides or civilians were also killed.

	23-07-2002 03:03									#100
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Fez:

quote: You proved nothing.

I posted a quote and two links. If you had doubts regarding the veracity of those links or the conclusion drawn from them, you could have said so. You instead decided to conceed the point.

quote: what insult?

Well, this one, for starters:Hahaha... hahaha... hahaha... Sorry... I just have to laugh at this terribly stupid remark. It offered more.

followed by GET A LIFE.

and
It is stupid when you don't know what you are talking about...

	23-07-2002 03:05									#101
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Cybergnu, most of what I posted on this crisis is opinion. So please read my posts more clearly.

	23-07-2002 03:11									#102
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quote: It was called an inference. I was inferring people get sick of violence and want an end to it.

Well, you could have posted that when I asked for a clarification then, couldn't you? I think you just proved my point quite well.

quote: No I didn't. I gave you a full and complete description of my views.

And as I've already said once, your views aren't the issue. It's your lack of civility.

If you want to discuss your views and how they don't correspond to mine, that is fine.

quote: You are not the one to judge when you yourself lack it.

Regressing back to our sandbox days, are we? 'I know you are, but what am I'?

	23-07-2002 03:18									#103
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Well, you could have posted that when I asked for a clarification then, couldn't you? I think you just proved my point quite well.

Well I guess I have posted it now haven't I?

quote: And as I've already said once, your views aren't the issue. It's your lack of civility.

Again, I don't lack civility. Take a look at my past few posts.

quote: If you want to discuss your views and how they don't correspond to mine, that is fine.

And I think I have exhausted discussing so I will pull out of this. I got my views and I said them and defended them, that ought to be enough.

quote: Regressing back to our sandbox days, are we? 'I know you are, but what am I'?

Wrong.

	23-07-2002 03:22									#104
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quote: Again, I don't lack civility. Take a look at my past few posts.

True, and I appreciate that. Now what about the apology?

	23-07-2002 04:58									#105
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu True, and I appreciate that. Now what about the apology?

And you got it. But you have to understand I am 18, male and am a bit too hyper sometimes....

	23-07-2002 06:24									#106
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CyberGnu, How do you think the Palestinians would react if they were offered the possibility of becoming Israeli citizens?

	23-07-2002 06:41									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ned CyberGnu, How do you think the Palestinians would react if they were offered the possibility of becoming Israeli citizens?

The Israelis would never offer that for the same reason that they consider a full ROR for Palestinian refugees to be out of the question.

	23-07-2002 07:09									#108
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Ah, but DinoDoc, are you certain? The problem with ROR is that the PALs want the former residents and landowners to be able to return to Israel proper. What I envision is an offer to the Pals now resident in Palestine the chance to become Israeli citizens under certain conditions. They would have stay put on the West Bank or Gaza - at least for an interim period - but would have a right to go anywhere in Israel for work or vacation. They would be exempt from PA-imposed taxes, but would instead have to pay Israeli taxes, etc. They would also have to serve in the IDF. I suspect that Israel could also impose a language requirement.

The reason I suggest this, is that this is the way the Romans gradually made conquered peoples into good citizens of the empire.

You might say that Israel would never do this because they may lose a majority Jewish population which could lead to an end of the right of Jewish peoples to emigrate to Israel. Perhaps. But if Isreal had a real constitution that could not be amended without a supra-majority vote of the people, they could put into that constitution guarantees of Jewish immigration into Israel, the right of free exercise of religion, etc.

Even though it would be hard for many Israeli's to take this risk, the long term benefits of a completely united "Palestine" are obvious.

But I have no idea how the Palestinians would react to such a concept.

	23-07-2002 08:03									#109
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If they were citizens then they could vote. The Jewish population of Israel isn't willing to accept this.

	23-07-2002 10:03									#110
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Fez,

Ned, I agree with Dino. I still think a combination of economic incentives (sponsored by Israel, EU and US) plus a land partition would be the best solution. Hand over some of Israel that is within the green line to the returning palestinians, and you would take of the ROR plus have the chance of making the new palestinian state more viable. (Not to mention weakening the power of Arafat...)