19-07-2002 22:30									#1
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The two year intifada has taken a major toll on the Palestinian working class. Almost 200,000 construction, agricultural, and service laborers haven't been able to work since the latest uprising began. These jobs helped drive the Palestinian economy. No more.

Today, after having gone through their savings, having sold off their posessions, and international aid not getting through the PA, the Palestinian working class is angry and they hold Arafat responsible. Workers received $100 from the Palestinian trade federation, to help see them through the economic crisis. Some of the larger families have gotten as many as five payments, but most workers have only recieved one payment. The union is also trying to help out with free medical care.

Workers complain that the PA still drives around in cars, still can get gas. "The police already complain if they get their salaries one month late," says one worker. "We haven't had salaries for two years."

"Hassanein says he voted for Arafat in the elections six years ago, but now regrets it. This time around, he does not know who will get his vote. 'The situation is so bad,' he says. 'Just in order to get a little bit of money, most people are prepared to make a deal with the devil.' By 'devil' he seems to refer both to the Islamic extremists who oppose Arafat and to the Israelis, for whom most laborers would gladly work again if given the chance."[1]

The PA is clearly worried about the mood among the Palestinian workers. But so too is Hamas. Although various Islamic charities are tied to Hamas, the organization itself is also held responsible for the situation in which the Palestinian workers find themselves today.




[1] Ferry Biedermann, "In Gaza, blame turns toward Arafat," Salon.com, July 19, 2002

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Last edited by chegitz guevara on 19-07-2002 at 23:15

	19-07-2002 23:08									#2
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I sooo hope that they will change their tune. If they will , I am pretty sure that Sharon will too. If not , he won't be elected.

	19-07-2002 23:14									#3
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Yes, I read in the paper this morning that 50% of all Palestinians in the occupied areas are now below the poverty line, (which I believe was set at $2.00 a day)

Now the question is what the impact of this will be. Some say that it will erode support for all the extremist groups since some feel that their newly found poverty is a result of Isreal clampling down on the extremists. When the choice is politics or the survival of your family, survival is usually the choice.

Or will this continue to feed the cycle of desperation that led to this point and provide a whole new breeding ground for extremists.

No one knows for sure but all predict more bloodshed.

The quality of basic sanitation and health services have also degraded considerably.

RAH

	19-07-2002 23:14									#4
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Hopefully the wonders of capitalism soon can reap its benefits in the region... unfornately Israel and Palestinian Suicide Bombers are not allowing that to happen. I stand neutral. I am against both sides.

It is tragic to see people not have jobs, and don't have enough to eat. Then they should be rebelling against Arafat and his terror network that have managed to throw their country into the ground. I don't care if they are rich or poor.

That is my .02 cents, from a capitalist hardliner.

	19-07-2002 23:27									#5
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One of the things that the situation does is makes becoming a suicide bomber very attractive. Your family is starving (I've seen a report that as many as 80% of Palestinians live in poverty), but if you blow yourself up killing Israelis, Saddam Hussein will give your family between 5,000 and 25,000 dollars! Israel also alleges that Saudi Arabia is making similar payments to Palestinians (while the Saudis deny this, I believe the Israelis on this one). You family can live quite well off of your sacrifice.

However, the threat that Hamas and Arafat face are from the fathers, who are going mad because they cannot feed their families. They are gathering in tents as a symbol of protest across Palestine to discuss their problems. Although the protestors take care to make sure they aren't linked with any faction, all of those in power are worried. Most revolutions start as bread riots.

	19-07-2002 23:29									#6
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If the stop terrorism unilateraly, after couple weeks the IDF will leave their cities, month or two later it will return to the pre-intifada line, and a few years of peaceful protest later the Israeli public opinion will force a withdrawal from most of the territories.

Or they can continue with terrorism and starve to death.

	19-07-2002 23:30									#7
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And Che, we agree on one thing, is that a family living off of that reward given because one member is a suicide bomber is very depressing. They need somebody to lead them and fast. Arafat obviously is not the person to do that. Somebody must stop the terrorism because Palestine looks like another mini-Afghanistan.

	19-07-2002 23:30									#8
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara but if you blow yourself up killing Israelis, Saddam Hussein will give your family between 5,000 and 25,000 dollars!

Not anymore. Now his family will be arrested and his house destroyed.

	19-07-2002 23:37									#9
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One thing I've been curious about. How has the lack of Palestinean laborers affected the Israeli economy?

	19-07-2002 23:51									#10
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Probably made a lot of jobs available to Soviet immigrants. There was a serious unemployment problem for them, but I'm just making an educated guess.

	20-07-2002 00:02									#11
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No. we're importing "foreign workers" aka slaves from Eastern Europe , Africa, and the Far East ( actually , the later are doing pretty well. ) The latest suicide bombing hurt mostly the population of foreign workers. Unemployment levels remain high ,at 9.5% , but I imagine the real numbers standing at around 9% with some people declaring unemployment to get the welfare.

	20-07-2002 00:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Not anymore. Now his family will be arrested and his house destroyed.

Eli, a major step in the right direction.

BTW, is there any non terrorist PA candidate that truly cares for the plight of Palestinian people.

I hope the Pals themselves arrest their terrorist leaders and put them all to death not only for their crimes against humanity, but because of the suffering they have caused the people of Palestine.

	20-07-2002 00:24									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti No. we're importing "foreign workers" aka slaves from Eastern Europe , Africa, and the Far East ( actually , the later are doing pretty well. ) The latest suicide bombing hurt mostly the population of foreign workers. Unemployment levels remain high ,at 9.5% , but I imagine the real numbers standing at around 9% with some people declaring unemployment to get the welfare.

Slaves not Slavs?

Interesting, in another thread, we learned that a lot of Slav migrated to Greece in the early 600's prior to Heraclius restoring Roman fortunes. There Slavs became the field workers and the word "slave" was born.

	20-07-2002 00:26									#14
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How can they revolt against Arafat with Israeli armour on the streets?

Arafat is Israels favourite punchbag. He'll stay.

	20-07-2002 00:33									#15
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Ned , there are people that are interested in other things rather than terror. Unfortunately I suspect them , as most of the palestinian leadership to be highly corrupt. And yes, I meant slaves. The conditions in which these people work are terrible. But they do choose to stay here , that's true. I'd rather not have them here , at all.

quote: How can they revolt against Arafat with Israeli armour on the streets?

It wasn't always like it is today . Israel started invading the palestinian cities only for a couple of months. The war is going on for almost two years now.

	20-07-2002 00:47									#16
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Odd. I was under the impression that Hamas provided social welfare in the Occupied Territories. That's how I thought that they gained most of thier recruits.

	20-07-2002 00:58									#17
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They cannot provide social welfare for the entire population. They're just an organization , after all.

	20-07-2002 01:02									#18
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Poverty is not really that interconnected with extremism. None of the 19 hijackers were people of poor background. Rather, educated and idealistic young people tend to walk the path of extremism. However, poor and desperate people are more prone to follow demagogues who make extravagant promises and carry out extremist actions.

The suicide-bombing-for-money thing is kind disturbing. But since Israel is now punishing the families of suicide bombers, there will be fewer incentives for many people to blow themselves up.

	20-07-2002 02:22									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti They cannot provide social welfare for the entire population. They're just an organization , after all.

Yes but an organization that is funded by Iraq and Syria, whom have plenty of money to spend on terrorism.

	20-07-2002 04:04									#20
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Ned:

quote: I hope the Pals themselves arrest their terrorist leaders and put them all to death not only for their crimes against humanity, but because of the suffering they have caused the people of Palestine.

Huh, when I advocate putting the repsonisble ones to death the pro-israelis here scream like stuck pigs...

I guess it is just the traditional pro-Israeli mindset: as long as it i done to arabs, anything is OK. If done to Israelis, it is outrageous.

	20-07-2002 04:07									#21
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CyberGnu: The Israelis aren't blowing up cafes by employing suicide bombers. But then again I am neutral in this issue siding with neither side.

	20-07-2002 04:12									#22
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Fez,

'he started it when he hit me back'

	20-07-2002 04:14									#23
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Fez, 'he started it when he hit me back'

I disagree. You logic is all skewed.

	20-07-2002 04:20									#24
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how so?

	20-07-2002 04:27									#25
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu how so?

I won't comment further because I don't want to seem leaning towards the Israeli side... I don't like either side but your logic is skewed because you only blame the Israelis. I think the Palestinians are just as much if not more to blame because of the terrorism.

	20-07-2002 04:39									#26
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So you are blaming both sides equally for carrying on a fight one side started?

Are you a schoolteacher, by any chance?

	20-07-2002 04:42									#27
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I think injustice has been done to the Palestinians, but they are fighting back with means that are worse than the injustice itself.

When the USAF was napalming Vietnamese villages, you didn't see NV bombing American civilians at every opportunity. Had they actually done that, there wouldn't have been anti-war protests on American streets, people wouldn't have called their own soldiers "baby killers", and Jane Fonda would have shown up on Radio Hanoi. Instead, there would have been an American solitarity to fight the Vietcong "Barbarians".

The NV were smart enough to paint themselves as victims, but resisted long enough to generate massive war weariness in the US, and won the war in the end.

If the Palestinians were just as smart as the Vietnamese, not only would most Americans stop taking Israel's side, but Israelis themselves would have accepted legitimate(eg Palestinian state, economic assistance, etc..) Palestinian demands.

Suicide bombings or murdering Israeli civilians may have satisfied the primitive human instinct of vengence, but they generally hurt more rational goals such as nationhood, economic prosperity, and the peace.

	20-07-2002 04:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu So you are blaming both sides equally for carrying on a fight one side started? Are you a schoolteacher, by any chance?

Nope I am a conservative. And I am not siding with Israel.

I used to though... but I am just sick of seeing this war continue.

One side didn't start this crap... both sides are equally to blame because both sides screwed up.

There was an offer on the table... and that is why I think the palestinians are more to blame. They had an offer by the Clinton and Barak adminstrations but Arafat rejected it!

	20-07-2002 04:54									#29
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Fez, the camp David offer was nothing more than an insult. It actually offered LESS than was already agreed on in the Oslo accords.

And you just fell victim to the biggest political lie since Hitler claimd that the jews caused the treaty of versaille.

	20-07-2002 04:56									#30
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I don;t think the camp david offer matters though. Israel is occupying palestine, and as long as the offer isn't unilateral withdrawal, the palestinans have the moral right to refuse.