22-07-2002 20:49									#31
	Put an end to popups!

Allright I give up. In a republic, people should not stay too long in power. What’s more, I we have the pleasure to see many players participating, reigns should not be too long,. Our progression is ssssssssssssssslow, very slow, for now. As I’ve build a new city, my enlighted successor shall take a look at the happiness situation.
Here is the saved game.

Attachment: consul1000bc.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	22-07-2002 21:27									#32
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El Gito uno,
I did misunderstand your comment. Thanks for clarifying it.

I mentioned that I dislike unrest in Civ and the reason for that is because I've never been very good at handling it. My usual answer to it is to throw gold toward rushbuilding whatever it is the unhappy denizens are demanding. In a game like ours that is not very easily done (though Julius did get us 100 more to add to the treasury). I can't stand jacking the luxury tax rate up to half or so and my experience in moving citizens within cities (making Eins, Elvises and such) is limited. In fact, my last real game (to completion, which was probably over a year ago) had me tinkering with citizens in that way and I had unrest trouble to some extent then. I curiously await how others will deal with our nation of potential ingrates so I can get a better grasp of how this matter is handled.

	22-07-2002 21:28									#33
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk As this is my first Succession game, better ask if there are any technical points I should know about posting the saves, etc???

Glad you can play

No special rules about saving games, just post the save file in the usual way.

Feeder cities are usually a luxury to be put in later...at the moment we just need cities...any cities More development on the river south of Sticky Mouse is essential. You are right about corruption in republic it can be crippling on the outskirts of the empire. Courthouses are useful but we don't need them now.

Basically we need:

Pottery/Gardens
Many more cities
Literacy/Republic

The order of play is:
SG(2) Played
SG[1] Played
El Civ Played
Julius Played
La Fayette is on
Messer Niccolò
Bloody Monk
STYOM

8 is a comfortable number of players

May I suggest that those playing the rest of the first round play 15 turns and when we come to round 2 we'll drop to 12.

Good Luck La Fayette!

-------------------------

SG(2)

	22-07-2002 22:00									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Feeder cities are usually a luxury to be put in later...at the moment we just need cities...any cities More development on the river south of Sticky Mouse is essential. You are right about corruption in republic it can be crippling on the outskirts of the empire. Courthouses are useful but we don't need them now. Basically we need: Pottery/Gardens Many more cities Literacy/Republic ------------------------- SG(2)

"Feeder" was a poor choice of words on my part; I meant it in the sense of a city site close enough to the Cap to lessen corruption that could be used, as needed, to more quickly send (feed) camels for WOW. And I had that river in mind for the site.

Lucky Git is in need of an Elvis, now!! What do you think about using Lucky Git as a source of Settlers ??

Definitely later on the courthouses. Just wanted you to keep in mind my tendency to overdo/mis-time white goods

	23-07-2002 01:53									#35
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Basically we need: Pottery/Gardens Many more cities Literacy/Republic SG(2)

I think 1st of all, we need trade (research is on the way). Then trading with our SSC city, then the gardens and then many more cities. I think Xin Yu strategy of permenent commodity to a city thanks to a food caravan might be very effective, I even think that I have improved it ...

	23-07-2002 02:34									#36
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Jules

As the newbe, let me ask ,sir, Whatever do you mean?

And can we trade without roads?? Or is that a given??

	23-07-2002 03:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida Then trading with our SSC city

The settler you employed - busy irrigating buffalo could have been another city on the river south of Sticky Mouse. If you are keen on Trade then we actually need some cities to make caravans.

Please enlighten us how you have improved Xin's strategy

------------------

SG(2)

	23-07-2002 05:28									#38
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Horribile visu
La Fayette is almost ( ) frightened when he discovers this 'not Republic yet':
widespread cities (just as if they had been built in order to maximize corruption and waste), very few roads, very few settlers busy building roads, 2 temples already built + 2 more under building (which means 4 gold/turn maintenance, exactly what our taxes bring us every turn) and our poor coneheads are busy researching Trade at the poor rythm of 17 turns/tech.
La Fayette shouts his decisions throughout the Palace: 'destroy those temples under building at once, one warrior will be OK instead; build new settlers; use them to build roads linking our cities together; and start building catapults that we shall switch to caravans when we discover Trade!'
The civil servants bow and go to work .
Short log:
975 = Colossus finished building in Sticky Mouse
900 = Our horseman kills 2 barb archers in 1 blow
800 = Our horseman looks at an irrigated square
775 = Too bad! It's Shanghai (we have already met the Chinese previously)
725 = TRADE discovered (at long last!), Literacy researched
625 = We decide to tip one more hut (since we now have Trade): hard luck, it's a horde of barb horsemen!
600 = Consuls Retreat attacked by a barb archer, our warriors attack the archer: #1 killed, #2 saves the city (for a while).
Our first caravan is already miles away from Sticky Mouse and 8 more are now under building in our 8 cities.
La Fayette means that his job has been done. He resigns and goes to bed at once.

	23-07-2002 05:37									#39
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Of course I didn't build any city. We have 8 and already 1 red face, ... and Republic is still faraway. I mean that building one more city now would have been like shooting a bullet in my left foot (and I don't wish to do that since it hurts ).

	23-07-2002 10:22									#40
	Inflate your Upload Space

La Fayette could you please post the save file

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SG(2)

	23-07-2002 12:16									#41
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Dissention in the Senate - and it hasn't even been built yet

I knew there were good reasons for a sound non-dissenting Fundamentalist State

There always seems to be the tension between the city builders and the city cherishers - as I readily admit my total inability to cherish a city - I'm with the builders - a Republican sleaze is perfectly playable, just messy.

For my threeha'p'th -- how do we increase our Science rate without throwing down a hoste of new cities and utilising the trade specials our explorers have discovered?

SG[1]

	23-07-2002 12:57									#42
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tu pi tum tu pi tum...

it look that Mr. Niccolò, the soon-toga-wearer, will have the honour to save the soon-a-republic Sticky Mouse Dictatorship. I'll have to fund the "New Mr. Niccolò Flowers from the World Ltd." as soon as our beautiful gardens will be build...
(or maybe I can build the Oracle instead? [ Mr. N. looking around to see if one of the Gits is nearby]



I gave a look to the last save available (1000bc) and, "with horror and disbelief" I saw few cities, no roads, and other various .
Happy of what learnt in the past Sticky Mouse Institutes (not so happy to wash the dishes), I await, flexing my now powerful muscles (right hand fingers) that soon will be on the Sticky Mouse, for La Fayette to post our pre-Republic .sav, sure that our road system will be the finest of the world and happy of the mass-camel building...

... awaiting...

	23-07-2002 13:53									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Power of the Gardens and more cities

The current debate on the best strategy is interesting as it involves some of the basics of the game. Although we are going to form a Republic we are currently in Despotism and must manage this government type as best we can.

Rather than bore everyone senseless with an essay on my ideas, I thought it might be more useful to produce a practical example. Thus, I returned to the 1500BC save and played 15 turns to 875BC.

Like Julius, I wanted to avoid the wrong science falling out of a hut…so I followed his wise decision and didn't open any. I did build 4 cities and put a settler into Sticky Mouse to increase the citizens to four…enjoying more corruption free trade!

After Currency had been discovered Pottery was chosen as the next advance. The new cities began to make a difference to the tech rate, which started to improve. Using every high trade tile in the empire also helped…yes it was beaker counting. There were red faces but these were contained with Martial Law or Elvis. Because the corruption rate in Despotism is so high the introduction of an entertainer sometimes makes little difference to the beakers produced. Even with Elvis around all the new towns contributed at least one.

I never met the Chinese but near the end of my play I bumped into the Babylonians. On first meeting they didn't offer any tech exchange, but we agreed peace and they handed over 50 gold in tribute. Next year I knocked on their door again and was immediately offered a swap for Pottery. This was lucky, but if you look at the beaker progression in F6 (now for Trade) you will see it's over 80% full.

Next turn the Hanging Gardens were completed. Research rate every 12 turns and a capital celebrating.

The save file below is only for information. Please don't use it as the real game save.

-----------------------------------

SG(2)

Attachment: st_b875.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	23-07-2002 14:11									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits La Fayette could you please post the save file ------------------ SG(2)

It was 2.30. I did exactly what I wrote: resign and go to bed. I apologize.

	23-07-2002 14:26									#45
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

SG(2)
Have you got a '1000' savegame? I think it would make the comparison with Julius easier.
I am not sure it will be conclusive though, mostly because he met the Chinese and got nothing at all, and you met the Babs and got a lot (especially Pottery and the right to build HG ).

	23-07-2002 14:40									#46
	Inflate your Upload Space

La Fayette...do what I did and download the 1000BC save from the log posted by Julius.

Sure Pottery was lucky but I would have had it anyway in a couple of turns...see how full F6 is in my save.

I don't know how many times Julius made contact with the Chinese, (he did get 100g ) but on first contact with the Babs I was offered no exchanges. Only on the second time I spoke to them did they offer a science exchange.

In tight situations (with no embassies) I have found it useful to talk to the AI every turn. They can suddenly acquire tech from huts like a human player. For all we know the Chinese may have Pottery as well.

------------------

SG(2)

	23-07-2002 15:10									#47
	Put an end to popups!

OK, I have compared the games, and here is my opinion:
The wrong choice was made by Julius in 1250 when he chose to research Trade instead of Pottery (sorry, Julius, this can happen to anyone of us).
This choice led him to build Colossus in Sticky Mouse, which is nice, instead of building HG, which would have been great in our situation (Monarchy forbidden, we are compelled to stay in Despotism much longer and happiness problems are more acute).
SG2 is perfectly right building more cities in his comparison game, since he knows that he is going to have HG within a few turns.
SG2, would you play the same if you started with the '1000' save at the end of Julius reign? (with Colossus and without HG)

	23-07-2002 15:27									#48
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La Fayette ... Sorry, I think I misunderstood your request about a 1000BC save. Yes I do have one for the turns I re-played and the advance rate then was 13 turns/8 gold per turn. If I post it here as a save file it could become confusing, but if anybody wants to see it I will email it out.

At 1000BC with no Gardens but with the Colossus I would expand and hope to catch the Gardens. With the Colossus I might be tempted to build a library in Sticky Mouse...I would have to look at things carefully.

----------------

SG(2)

	23-07-2002 16:33									#49
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It's no use crying about what happened.
I don't disagree with SG2: I think his 875 save with HG and 12 cities would be a nice start for a strong midgame.
But we are now in 600BC (my save) with 8 cities, Colossus and no HG.
Here is my proposal:
We have 8 caravans under building. Let us use 6 of these to build the Oracle and switch the other 2 to temples, then build (or rushbuild) temples in the remaining 4 cities (2 temples are already there).
This will give us a civ with 8 cities, each of them able to grow to size 7-8 under despotism and switch to Republic very easily.
I call this a non-Apolyton proposal because the Oracle has never been much advocated on this forum, but I remember having won many games at deity level using it (a long time ago ).
Besides, if my successor chooses this way of growth, we are sure to have some heated discussions with the SGs... and THAT is fun .

	23-07-2002 16:55									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

La Fayette Heated arguments with the Gits NEVER!

The Oracle is an interesting proposal...except we need Mysticism to build it

-----------------------

SG(2)

	23-07-2002 17:37									#51
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If I understand our situation, and I may not, we are looking at the following:

1. We can try to keep pace in science--get ahead even--and risk an almost certain and widespread uprising from the malcontents among the citzenry

2. We can appease the masses with temples, perhaps Oracle and other means but almost surely fall behind other civs in science and maybe miss out on a wonder or two that we would like to build.

While I am not as well schooled in these matters as the others it seems to me that we should probably appease the masses, build a strong military and then go conquer elsewhere and steal the tech we missed out on in order to catch up. Either that or have dips steal it. Along the way we can trade like madmen and keep a steady supply of camels around for rushing wonders. BTW, are we going to be able to build HG before the AI does?

	23-07-2002 18:26									#52
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If I am reading the logs correctly we are virtualy certain to get the Gardens - we seem to have a sufficiency of Vans in train and all we need is the tech ...

But it may be a different story when we open the save game ...

SG[1]

	23-07-2002 18:32									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Heated arguments with the Gits NEVER! ...except we need Mysticism to build it ----------------------- SG(2)

That one was not heated, but I confess it is very strong .

	23-07-2002 18:54									#54
	I am missing something? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

... since I'm at work, and far from my CivII.exe file (otherwise I'll have to change work.... ) I cannot see if any other Civ has built the HG. Have they?
If the answer is yes... well we have a seek and conquer mission on the table if not... well we have our camel factory already started. Some commodities delivered, some other in HG building... et voilà, beautiful flowers!

... and I don't like the Oracle at all ...

	23-07-2002 19:15									#55
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Messer Niccolò No other civ has built the Gardens, but there is a slight problem as The Sticky Mouse Senate has no idea how to make pots

Your turn now...save the Senate and build the HG
Good Luck!

The order of play is:

SG(2) Played
SG[1] Played
El Civ Played
Julius Played
La Fayette Played
Messer Niccolò Played
Bloody Monk
STYOM

---------------------

SG(2)

Last edited by Scouse Gits on 24-07-2002 at 08:03

	23-07-2002 22:00									#56
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No one has built either HG or Oracle yet. We are currently researching Literacy that we should discover within 4-5 turns (with help of some caravans now under building).
We should then research Pottery (if available) or Mysticism (that would show you all that the Oracle can be pretty performing). Perhaps one of our scouting units will be able to trade the right tech in the meantime... or else we are not that far from Monotheism .

	23-07-2002 22:03									#57
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Give an SG a settler: he builds a city.
Give LaFayette a settler: he builds a road.

	23-07-2002 22:26									#58
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Can we add to our cities and have our serfs remain happy with temples and HG and without Oracle? Or will we still be restricted to a certain number of cities until we reach Republic, regardless of anything else?

Or perhaps we could change the rules and play the entire game in Despotism

Oh, BTW, so that I can play in succession games without patch problems I broke down and bought a copy of MGE from Amazon earlier today.

	23-07-2002 23:01									#59
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el civ
Though in Despotism, we are FREE.
Our civ has no problems as it is (8 cities with happy or content people inside, almost linked by road and building lots of caravans).
What we are discussing is the best way to grow quickly,...and in fact there is no best way since there is some luck factor included in the process.
If the despots choose to follow my advice, they won't build new cities until we switch to Republic. If they follow the SGs, several new cities will be built...
But, in both cases, we shall grow and win, since we are so much more reactive than the AI .

	23-07-2002 23:04									#60
	Got spare money?

BTW the ultimate version of civ2 is available in Toulouse for 20$. I could send a game to anyone willing to study the guidebook in French .