23-07-2002 06:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sava There are many other expletives I could use to describe your accusations, but I won't (looks over shoulder for Ming).

I'm glad you saw me... thanks for the edit

	23-07-2002 07:01									#32
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No the Great Depression wasn't good, neither were the Nazi death camps. But we learned from the mistakes and history won't be repeated.

And America would never become like Africa because freedom and the desire to build a great life are the two most important qualities that make America beautiful. Somewhere along the way, greed infested the system, and it must be rooted out.

	23-07-2002 07:01									#33
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Sava, would you mind describing for the class what political system you do support? I don't care for your pick & choose approach, that's not how the world works. If you're so angry with capitalism, what will you replace it with?

	23-07-2002 07:02									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Fez, I shall not apologize to you. You don't even live in the US, you aren't an American, so don't lecture me on treason. My family escaped fascism and communism to come to this country. I support freedom.

You are not an American either so don't lecture me on freedom. I know freedom.

quote: I believe that everyone should at the minimum, be given an equal opprotunity to work hard and advance themselves.

And they are.

quote: I believe that government has the responsiblity to provide food, clothing, safety, health, and education to those who cannot support themselves.

I support that too.

quote: I also believe in free enterprise and competition in commerce, but history has proven that the government has to play parent to the corporate children that don't want to play by the rules.

Lawlessness has no place in society, so I agree.

quote: The current economic system is counter-productive in this aspect. Most of the regulations that are in place aren't being enforced.

Wrongo. Most regulations are enforced. The current economic system is the same as you discuss above, free market supply sided.

quote: Do I want... the government to seize property, wealth and possesions? NO everyone to get an equal piece of the pie? NO everyone to get an equal opprotunity to get a piece of the pie? YES everyone to get an opprotunity to achieve their potential? YES the government sticking is nose (or other body parts) where it doesn't belong? NO a society where smoking, alcohol, red meat, drugs, and violence on TV is banned? NO.. it should all be legal, but programs to help fight addiction should be free to all, and addicts shouldn't be made criminals.

Then what do you want in the end?

I want supply-sided economics to be the economic sysytem, and it is right now. As it is the best system ever.

	23-07-2002 07:02									#35
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I don't want to replace it, I want to improve upon it.

next time raise your hand or you'll stay inside while everyone else goes outside to play kickball...

	23-07-2002 07:02									#36
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Asher: "Sava, would you mind describing for the class what political system you do support? I don't care for your pick & choose approach, that's not how the world works. If you're so angry with capitalism, what will you replace it with?"

Savaism, of course. Isn't that usually the case with these types?

	23-07-2002 07:03									#37
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So...

You believe in free market, so long as it doesn't have fluctuations.

And you want the government to have power, and trust it not to abuse said power.

Did you want a Unicorn, too?

The fairy godfather is busy whacking the Easter Bunny, so I guess we'll have to wait for santa.

	23-07-2002 07:05									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't want to replace it, I want to improve upon it.

Then hope the stock market goes up. Then join the ranks of the DoC (Department of Commerce) or other agencies to help the fight against bad accounting and other irregularities. Don't support the overthrow of the only system that works.

If you don't want that then I will ask this:

What do you want as a whole?

	23-07-2002 07:05									#39
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Dan Severn:

	23-07-2002 07:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Fez You are not an American either so don't lecture me on freedom. I know freedom.

Funny, born and raised in Chicago, Illinois... wait... I just looked on my ass, it says "made in America"...

Fez, you don't know ****...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I shall sit on my soapbox and wish for the downfall of the stockmarket all I want. Many of my ancestors, and the ancestors of my American brothers and sisters died for this right and many others. So don't say I am committing treason by exercising MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

	23-07-2002 07:07									#41
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What Sava describes sounds like Social Democracy to me..

	23-07-2002 07:08									#42
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Sava, I was watching too during lunch our.

Asher: Who the **** do you think you are for saying this kind of **** to us lefties? Have you ever been hungry because you had no money for food? I assume the answer is no, so take your Neoliberalist ass some where else.

My girlfriend's family is two paychecks away from becoming homeless because her dad invested in the stocks. But people are going to get tired of this ****.

I'm going to keep watching... Hmmm I need some beer!

	23-07-2002 07:08									#43
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I've studied enough American history to know that change only occurs after tragedy...

Pearl Harbor
9-11 (although not much has changed)
1929 stock market crash
the Apollo Program
and now, Enron, Worldcom, and hopefully, the stock market

	23-07-2002 07:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Strates Asher: Who the **** do you think you are for saying this kind of **** to us lefties? Have you ever been hungry because you had no money for food? I assume the answer is no, so take your Neoliberalist ass some where else. My girlfriend's family is two paychecks away from becoming homeless because her dad invested in the stocks. But people are going to get tired of this ****.

Um...Sava's the one reveling in their losses, not me.

Can't you lefties keep anything straight?

	23-07-2002 07:10									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Funny, born and raised in Chicago, Illinois... wait... I just looked on my ass, it says "made in America"...

I thought you said your family was not from the US?

BTW, my dad is Italian but was born in Hartford, CT. I was born in Spain.

quote: Fez, you don't know ****... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Yes but you are invoking treason which is the overthrow of the government. Treason is highlighted in the consititution I believe. And don't say I know **** when you don't know anything at all.

quote: I shall sit on my soapbox and wish for the downfall of the stockmarket all I want. Many of my ancestors, and the ancestors of my American brothers and sisters died for this right and many others. So don't say I am committing treason by exercising MY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

You have no idea of what you are saying. Your ideas violate the laws of economics all together. I suggest you find the next ticket to Mogadishu.

If that is Social Democracy, I think it is a threat to society and must be removed.

No offense but this sounds like: Americans Nationalist Socialist Workers Party... considering Sava is as xenophobic as one can be...

	23-07-2002 07:11									#46
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Funny thing about how you Lefties always wish suffering on people, especially those who don't believe as you do... there's something amazingly fundamentalist about such an attitude, wouldn't you agree?

Guess the USSR wasn't the aberration you and your ilk stridently insist it was, huh?

To me, the interesting question is this: Does Leftism bring out the cruelty in people, or does it attract the cruel?

	23-07-2002 07:13									#47
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Sava, you have the right to write about your Ideas. So r, you've just griped about the capitalist syatem, yet have offered no alternatives. In fact, you seemed downright offended by the suggestion that you were not in favor of a free system. Put forth reasonable ideas, or I will use my first ammendment rights to say, "Shaddap!"

	23-07-2002 07:24									#48
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What Sava describes sounds like Social Democracy to me..

And the problem with that is? I guess a minor part of society can not capitalize as much as they can right now on the poor...Lefties always a label from the right

	23-07-2002 07:25									#49
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quote: Originally posted by blackice What Sava describes sounds like Social Democracy to me.. And the problem with that is? I guess a minor part of society can not capitolize as much as they can on the poor that way...Lefties always a label from the right

hey, blackice, if something is not on the right side, and not right infront or behind of you, which side is it on?

Canada is more of a social democracy than the US, and look how well it turns out for us.

Amazingly, only the provinces with conservative governments are considered "have" provinces while the provinces to the left are "have not". This is a great indication, why not move EVERYTHING to the left more? Everyone's happy!

	23-07-2002 07:34									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Strates My girlfriend's family is two paychecks away from becoming homeless because her dad invested in the stocks. But people are going to get tired of this ****.

This has far more to do with your girlfriend's father being a uninformed investor than it has to do with the nature of the stock market. If he is two pay checks away from being broke now, then he was already two pay checks away from being broke when he invested. That or he is a day trader that buys on margin and thus risked it all for the promise of reward.

What you and Sava don't realize is that in this country while you are given the opportunity to succeed you're also given the opportunity to fail. You both sound like you want to remove the ability to fail thus also, unbeknownst to you, the ability to succeed as those that have failed would be surviving off of your success.

	23-07-2002 07:34									#51
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I did not say anything about overthrowing the gov't Fez... so apparantly, you don't know **** and you either can't read, or have poor eyesight, or maybe all of the above. My mother's side is not native to the US. My grandparents on that side are from Yugoslavia, and my mom and her brother and sister were born in refugee camps in Germany and labeled as 'displaced persons' with no native citizenship.

And I am not xenophobic, I don't even know where you pulled that stupid idea from. ILLEGAL immigrants should be deported and shown where the line for legal immigrants is. My family waited their turn, so can they.

Asher, don't compare the US to Canada, they are two different countries founded on different principles by different peoples with different motives. Canada has nowhere near the diversity of the US, and nowhere near the wealth and power, let alone the problems. Their programs, however, are a little bit better than the US's. The hockey's good up there, but the beer sucks ....

	23-07-2002 07:35									#52
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Canada is more of a social democracy than the US, and look how well it turns out for us.

You are living in the streets I can tell

Yes tell that to the hundreds of thousand homeless. But yes a social democracy where the few elite pick on the homeless, poor, aged and sick and the governments boast mega bucks and kids go without food yup good system...

The great depression created this mess in the first place...And who created the great depression the homeles the poor

Looks like Santa came early this year...

	23-07-2002 07:35									#53
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The only suffering I wish to exist in peoples' lives is the natural suffering of life. We will never eliminate heartbreak, or cuts, or falling outs between friends. We can, however, eliminate unnatural suffering: war, etc.
Leftists are far more long term thinking in terms of doing people good. Conservatives made things work "wonderfully" for a while in the 20s, but it was the things that liberals did in the 30s that have lasted and really benefited peoples' lives. FDR gave people jobs and started to work. Hoover and his ilk did little

	23-07-2002 07:36									#54
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it is a horrible today when people live off of the dead bodies of others

unfortunately it has been that way for a long time

Jon Miler

	23-07-2002 07:37									#55
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but the beer sucks

Hey ok I draw the line here we have great beer if you can afford it

	23-07-2002 07:38									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Asher, don't compare the US to Canada, they are two different countries founded on different principles by different peoples with different motives.

You're doing good so far...

quote: Canada has nowhere near the diversity of the US

You pulled this statement out of nowhere. You've obviously not paid much attention to Vancouver or Toronto, have you? Canada also has an immigration rate far higher than the US. But we digress...

quote: and nowhere near the wealth and power, let alone the problems.

Depends how you define problems. Canada has many, many problems that the US doesn't have to deal with, and vice versa.

The point is, Sava, if you look at the individual provinces in Canada, there is a blatant and obvious correlation between the political spectrum and well being. The two parties with conservatives in power for the past 5 years at least are Ontario and Alberta, and those are also the only two provinces labeled "have" provinces from the government. These two provinces fund budgets in the other provinces since they aren't as well off.

It's a great example as to why socialism isn't always the best option, but the lefties love to ignore it...

	23-07-2002 07:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by blackice And the problem with that is? I guess a minor part of society can not capitalize as much as they can right now on the poor.

And equal disturbing is that fact that no one at all capitalizes in such a society.

At the end of the day you have to ask yourself if you're a leftist because you're poor, or if you're poor because you're a leftist.

	23-07-2002 07:44									#58
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Don't begin to lecture me about having the opprotunity to succeed and fail, WhiteElephant. Some have the opprotunity to succeed, all have the opprotunity to fail, and the majority of us don't have golden parachutes or even soft mattresses to land on when he hit bottom. I don't want the idea of the stock exchange to be abolished, I never said that. I want it reformed, because it has flaws. Sure, I'll write and suggest some changes, but only the simple ones because at this point it time, I don't have the time or patience to lay out such extravagant plans. If I were made president tomorrow, I wouldn't draw up the plans for a more fair and protective economic system; I'd lay out what I want the end result to be, and appoint a think tank to do so.

Socrates said something to the effect of, "A truly wise man admits that he does not know everything. A truly wise man will admit where he is ignorant."

I'm not saying I'm a wise man, in fact, there's a whole lot I don't know. But I'm willing to admit what I don't know, and learn from those who do.

#1 change to the stock market AS IS
Publically Traded companies' earnings, cash flows, and bugdets would be made public domain. Straight from the accountant's desk to the bulletin board, so to speak.

#2 an addition to the gov't/ or non-profit company
An agency devoted to looking over accounting, and then providing free analysis of the market, companies, and industries.

But most importantly, any changes should be made gradually and their effects studied, analyzed, and improved upon. Try and fail, try and fail, there is no success without trying and failing.

	23-07-2002 07:46									#59
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How exactly did pearl harbor change america? It finally dragged us into the war that we would inevitably have become a part of. Whatever. Shuttlecocks.


Sava, the world needs cange, but it does not need chaos. The US came out of the depression more or less intact, but with a much bigger government. Germany came out of it with the rise of the Nazi party. Russia barely noticed because they had been in the shithouse all along. Or the dark ages. Corrupt rome finally disapeared to leave- centuries of carnage.

EDIT: It occurs to me that much of the secretive side o business is caused by avoidance of income tax...

	23-07-2002 07:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I did not say anything about overthrowing the gov't Fez... so apparantly, you don't know **** and you either can't read, or have poor eyesight, or maybe all of the above. My mother's side is not native to the US. My grandparents on that side are from Yugoslavia, and my mom and her brother and sister were born in refugee camps in Germany and labeled as 'displaced persons' with no native citizenship.

As long we are talking about our families I will tell you about mine. My mother's side is from Spain, my grandfather fought on the Nationalist side in the civil war and lived under three decades of direct military rule of Generalissimo Franco. My dad is Italian but was born in the US and served for a long time in the US government... my grandfather (on my dad's side) has a house in Sicily. He served in the Italian Army during WWII, something he certainly was not proud of.

quote: And I am not xenophobic, I don't even know where you pulled that stupid idea from. ILLEGAL immigrants should be deported and shown where the line for legal immigrants is. My family waited their turn, so can they.

You apparently were getting all prissy towards me and saying I shouldn't speak because I am not american. You just violated your own opinion, you want me to shut up and therefore not to have any freedom of speech.

You speak reform but you don't have a clue on how to execute such idea.