24-07-2002 01:03									#1
	"Kissing"? Or just "friendly"? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, this topic rears its head once more in debate. I won't even pretend that it has nothing to do with my present love life.

Consider the following:

He's smart. He's smooth. He's immaculately dressed and definitely looks good on you. He's your ideal man, your Mr Right, your completing half, and he feels pretty much the same way about you. There's only one thing - he's your cousin.

I've heard from various friends that I'm being crazy. I know what I'm doing is frowned upon by the traditionalists in my family, not least my parents and his. But I also know that what I feel is special - and by special, this could mean both "especially good" as well as "unnatural" (insofar as that word means anything concerning human behavior).

So what do you think? Is this a matter for consenting adults in private? Is this a self-assumed risk which an adult may responsibly bear? Or is this a crime against blood, the firing shot of a civil war that will threaten to engulf and tear apart a family network?

Answers on a postcard please. And I'm rather pushed for time too.

	24-07-2002 01:15									#2
	Re: "Kissing"? Or just "friendly"? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia Is this a matter for consenting adults in private? Is this a self-assumed risk which an adult may responsibly bear?

Yup. Incest carries risks of causing birth defects in offspring, but otherwise it's just a meaningless taboo. If you're not planning on having kids, then what the hell, no harm no foul.

quote: Or is this a crime against blood, the firing shot of a civil war that will threaten to engulf and tear apart a family network?

If your family isn't going to be at all supportive (if instead they're going to be terribly upset by this), then either they're being rational about it or irrational. Talk to them discretely. If they have a rational reason for why you two shouldn't hook up, then talk it over with them, maybe you'll convince them that their fears are unfounded or maybe they'll convince you why hooking up is a bad idea. If they're being irrational ("It's a sin, because I say so!", for example), then either say "to hell with them" (I do not recommend this), say "to hell with my cousin" (I do not recommend this), or act with discretion.

	24-07-2002 01:20									#3
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Well the currect percentage of babies with birth defects (excluding ones caused by things like drugs) is 3%. Cousins average 6%. Not that big of a jump. I don't know if the defects are more severe for cousins though.

	24-07-2002 01:23									#4
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Based on my own personal convictions, I would recommend against having a relationship with a family member. Just the way I think...

	24-07-2002 01:28									#5
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Hmmm, seems odd, probably by social convention.

But hell, move to the deep south of the US, and you will be in the norm

	24-07-2002 01:32									#6
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Well, it really depends on your personal morals. Does the possible losing of The One really outweigh the outcome? Are you the ones who think that life is short and you should take ahold of it as strongly as possible and grasp any possible chance, or will you submit to the will of others and do against your own feelings? I can't have an opinion on your personal situation, and I'd rather not tell you what I'd do myself, because I am not you, and my family is not your family (and I do not have cousins).

	24-07-2002 01:33									#7
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Oh and if you ever reproduce, may I remind you of the Hardy-Weinberg equation and the effect on the numbers of the inbreeding coefficient?

	24-07-2002 01:36									#8
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Since my knowledge in science is pretty limited, wouldn't inbreeding cause an weakened immune system?

	24-07-2002 01:40									#9
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Many other things affect the immune system. Most likely that system would not be affected.

	24-07-2002 01:41									#10
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PH!!! I live in the South, but that would be Texas not the back hills of Kentucky! Only joking.

I had the same problem once while I was a teen. I became attracted to my cousin once. To be honest I think it truly is hormones. Yes and before you go making your see I told you so comments regarding the South.......lets do keep in mind that I am adopted so the incest thing really holds no water for me except from a moral stand point.

Anyway back on topic. Evaluate your feelings. Is this really....honestly...truly Mr. Right or is he Mr. Right Now. Is it that he fills some need or desire? Does he feel the same way? Does he know how you feel? Even if everyone felt mutualy the same you would still have the stigmata of "dating" your cousin as well as possible shunning from your family. Is that really worth a bit of possible hormones?

	24-07-2002 01:44									#11
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Well not really, depends on what traits end up becoming homozygous which could effect anything. As you know, if you take two random individuals, totally unrelated, their probability of having a deleterious allele at any one locus may be very low (lets say, for arguments sake, 1%). Therefore if two people reproduce, the probability of the child acquiring two of those genes would be 0.01x0.01=0.0001=0.01%, a very slim chance. However if they were two cousins reproduce, the fact is that if one of the couple possess the deleterious allele, the probability of them possessing that allele is far higher because of the common descent, and the probability of them also possessing that allele is 1 in 8 for a cousin, if the former possesses it. Thus the probability of the child being homozygous for this gene is 0.01*0.125=0.00125=0.125%, a massive 12 1/2 times greater of being affected by this genetic condition...apply that to all loci, all these nasty genetic conditions using the same mathematics and you will see why inbreeding is not a good thing

...I am sure I have omitted something in there...but never mind, it serves the illustration well.

	24-07-2002 01:48									#12
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BRAVO!!!! Give that man a cookie!

	24-07-2002 02:09									#13
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I'm pretty sure he feels something similar for me. We met up in Beijing just before it was time for me to leave (melodramatically, on the last day I could). This is by no means the first time we've met, so it's hardly a sudden thing.

We had dinner together, went for drinks along the Sanlitun bars together. He showed me his female friends and they all looked somewhat anxious...

Later, we hit the lounges and got tipsy together. Arm wrestling matches occurred. We went to the opening of a new club. Dancing occurred. Much laughter - much of it uproarious.

Then it's time to go back for some sleep, and he comes with me to see me back safely. He goes with me as far as the hotel doors, and when I take advantage of a cousinly hug to kiss him on his bare neck, he responds in kind.

He says it's a terrible shame we're cousins, otherwise we'd make a lovely couple. Then he's gone. Twenty four hours later, and I'm gone too, back to America.

What he said got me thinking - why should it be a "terrible shame"? I have to wear contacts for my eyesight - if I started dating a guy who also needed sight correction, am I endangering my future unborn generations? How far should I step back from my present happiness and concern myself with the distant future?

Bear in mind that this year I turn 23.

	24-07-2002 02:13									#14
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If you have the money, you can have a genetic screening test done on you and your cousin. This will be able to detect the presence of most of the bad alleles that we know about. Then, you can get a more accurate picture of how likely you two are to produce children with genetically inherited diseases.

	24-07-2002 02:18									#15
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wow...that's tough...really, really tough...

If all else fails, you could sell your story to a porn stories site.

	24-07-2002 02:19									#16
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When genetic screening is use, there is no longer any material risk of combined recessive defects when mating with first cousins. I see no reason for any incest restriction beyond the imediate family/household.

	24-07-2002 02:20									#17
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Well I would consider it to be very important that they do take advantage of genetic screening. They wouldn't want their kids to end up looking like our royal family

	24-07-2002 02:21									#18
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Genetic Screening is not perfect. It does not detect 100% of the time. Also, it only detects the genes that we know about. There are plenty of genetic diseases for which we still haven't identified the genes responsible/associated.

Added associated because we only know for sure that certain genes are associated with a diseases. In many cases, we still don't know how those genes are directly responsible for the disease.

	24-07-2002 02:23									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Hmmm, seems odd, probably by social convention. But hell, move to the deep south of the US, and you will be in the norm

The heck you will. You know nothing about the South.

	24-07-2002 02:24									#20
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I assume you are taking first cousins, since very few sociteties have rules or taboos beyond that relation. You should be able to find a jusirisdiction that one of you are familier with that has not legal restriction for first cousins, as ther are many.

	24-07-2002 02:25									#21
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If you do this and it becomes discovered you will become a social pariah.

	24-07-2002 02:26									#22
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Genetic screening may not be perfect, but having an amniocentesis is pretty good too, IIRC.

Last edited by loinburger on 24-07-2002 at 02:32

	24-07-2002 02:29									#23
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Oh yeah, there is amniocentesis, but the issue is that, as pchang has said, not all conditions are known about. But I would say that the majority of the more serious ones are well documented and genetic screening methods are available.

	24-07-2002 02:46									#24
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But my heartfelt advice is to forget this monagmous realationship idea and just have promiscuous sex with civ and smac gamers.

	24-07-2002 02:54									#25
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Do it! Fewer combined relatives! Cheaper wedding reception!

	24-07-2002 02:54									#26
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umm

I think that that is the worse idea

Jon Miller

	24-07-2002 02:54									#27
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I was refering to Lefty

JonMiller

	24-07-2002 02:56									#28
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I like your style. That's a truly 'Scottish' analysis on the situation

	24-07-2002 02:57									#29
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To tell you the truth, Miss Covelia, anything can come out of this. Chances are you might not spend the rest of your life with him, even if you go for it (not trying to discourage you). Of course, if you give it a shot, and it does seem promising and works out, then forgetting the whole thing will become impossible.

quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola But my heartfelt advice is to forget this monagmous realationship idea and just have promiscuous sex with civ and smac gamers.

How rude of you to post something like that!
Without a forewarning reading "Warning! This post will make you roll on the floor and laugh for good five minutes", that is.

	24-07-2002 03:08									#30
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My cousine and me get along greatly.

We really can see into eachother's soul, we understand eachother's feelings and thoughts completely and that's not a small thing. Actually is very great.

And we always feel cool and relaxed with each other and have a great time together.

We joked about this: "Damn, if only we were not cousins"

I think this thing of understanding eachother so well has somehow to do, in part, that we are both part of a wider family (she is a third cousin of mine? - I don't really know how this is calculated) and we have been brought up in similar ways?

The thought never really crossed my mind except when we were once out with her boyfriend and I sensed that he was eyeing me a bit worringly.

And I thought: "what the fook? doesn't he know that we are cousins?"

That was the first time I actually thought of it.

So no it's no for me or her.

But me is not you so I can't tell you what to do.

I just thought I'd mention that I have a cousine with which we click and understand eachother in an exceptional manner and that we have never thought about having a relationship.

It is great that I will always have such a friend for life.