29-07-2002 01:46									#61
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If you really are defending the USSR I suggest you find this quote funny usually said by my economic teacher mocking Joseph Stalin:

He speaks English with an attempt of an Russian accent saying "Yes, we have 0% unemployment, those who don't work are sent to death."

Don't defend this hopeless system.

	29-07-2002 01:58									#62
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Fez: you don't know what are you talking about. I do . my parents do.

I plainly asked my grandmother , that was born in 1916 , when was the last time there was hunger in the soviet union. It was during Stalin, 1952. We all can agree that Stalin was a very evil man , without diminishing the fact that he was crucial to the effort of defeating a man that was much more evil , Adolf Hitler.

There was economic growth. People had goods, cars , top-notch education, good medical care, jobs, social lives, TV, everything.

This was a planned economy , and as a matter of fact, life would have been much better, if that country wouldn't spend half of it's budget ( budget equals GDP in this case ) on defence. This was mainly during the times when the Stalinist Leaders attained power. The soviet union had a population of 270 million , and the same GDP as the UK. which was at 50 million. yet the soviet union managed to produce a space program that matched the american one , and to sustain the largest land force ever to exist , and to create an arsenal of ICBMs, that matched the american one.


In short , life in the Soviet Union was much better than it is now to the millions of people that lived there , on the whole. It could have been even better if lots of mistakes and mismanagements wouldn't had been made.

	29-07-2002 02:06									#63
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Yes there was economic growth... infact massive economic growth... but what about the twenty ****ing million people that died because of that! Same thing goes for China.

Ten more years of Putinism and you will see that the Soviet Union was big mess. Putin is probably the best thing to happen to Russia.

	29-07-2002 02:11									#64
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And whatever propaganda magazine you are reading, the USSR was totalitarian state...

	29-07-2002 02:16									#65
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quote: And whatever propaganda magazine you are reading, the USSR was totalitarian state...

I am not saying that it was democratic, though it was far from the stalin era. Still , you seem to fail to realize that I LIVED THERE.

	29-07-2002 02:17									#66
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But you left as a child

	29-07-2002 02:22									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti Fez: you don't know what are you talking about. I do . my parents do. I plainly asked my grandmother , that was born in 1916 , when was the last time there was hunger in the soviet union. It was during Stalin, 1952. We all can agree that Stalin was a very evil man , without diminishing the fact that he was crucial to the effort of defeating a man that was much more evil , Adolf Hitler. There was economic growth. People had goods, cars , top-notch education, good medical care, jobs, social lives, TV, everything. This was a planned economy , and as a matter of fact, life would have been much better, if that country wouldn't spend half of it's budget ( budget equals GDP in this case ) on defence. This was mainly during the times when the Stalinist Leaders attained power. The soviet union had a population of 270 million , and the same GDP as the UK. which was at 50 million. yet the soviet union managed to produce a space program that matched the american one , and to sustain the largest land force ever to exist , and to create an arsenal of ICBMs, that matched the american one. In short , life in the Soviet Union was much better than it is now to the millions of people that lived there , on the whole. It could have been even better if lots of mistakes and mismanagements wouldn't had been made.

half of its budget on arms??? no wonder it crumbled.

And let's not forget, the communist system made a superpower out of the country in just 70 years.

	29-07-2002 02:26									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti I am not saying that it was democratic, though it was far from the stalin era. Still , you seem to fail to realize that I LIVED THERE.

Dalg, how old where you when you lived there?

quote: And let's not forget, the communist system made a superpower out of the country in just 70 years.

Bullshit. That was all a thing of smoke and mirrors.

Every smart person knows bureaucrats can't set prices for the market. Therefore the communist system is illogical. I would rather be in Franco's government then an illogical communist.

	29-07-2002 02:27									#69
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so? I remember what my life was like , and I don't remember coming over to Israel as to an AMAZING land, where I could finally eat, or something.

Ecthelion, say, is East Germany better off now?

	29-07-2002 02:29									#70
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Almost certainly. Russia would be better now if it had undergone a union with the US too...

	29-07-2002 02:30									#71
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Our friend Dal will milk his SU experiences (banging against the crib, getting the cradle carried abord the plane to Israel) forever as he expounds on the successes of the Commie State.

Still, I'd be interested to know: if he considers 60 million Russian and East European victims of Communism a fair price for the achievements of the Soviet Union, why is he upset over a mere 6 million Jews dying to achieve another glorious Socialist utopia, the Nazi one?

	29-07-2002 02:32									#72
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The Cold War was not all mirror and smoke.

Moomin, the US overthrew its share of democracies and caused millions of deaths too. So?

Also, exploitation was and is alive and well today byt the west itself.

	29-07-2002 02:34									#73
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Still, I'd be interested to know: if he considers 60 million Russian and East European victims of Communism a fair price for the achievements of the Soviet Union, why is he upset over a mere 6 million Jews dying to achieve another glorious Socialist utopia, the Nazi one?

If the Nazis were Socialists then why did most of their big capitalists come out of the war with their fortunes intact?

	29-07-2002 02:34									#74
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The Soviet Union is dead.

Cherish Putin... he is the one... why Dalgetti won't you recognize that this man can bring prosperity to Russia instead of smoke and mirrors?

The communist system violates every single law of economics I can think of... from elasticity to about everything else...

	29-07-2002 02:34									#75
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paiktis, would you rather be oppressed by Russians or by Turks?

I'm just asking because I just conquered all of Greece (yes, including western Anatolia/Smyrna) in an EU2 game, as Russia from the Ottoman Empire, and I'd like to know how the people of Greece feel about that

	29-07-2002 02:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The Cold War was not all mirror and smoke.

The cold war wasn't, but the USSR was. Its economic system was a joke.

quote: Moomin, the US overthrew its share of democracies and caused millions of deaths too. So?

The Sandinistas weren't democratic. Name other democratic countries it overthrew? Chile was for the better... Allende was a butt faced monkey who didn't know what he was doing. Pinochet was a dangerous man but at least made an economy

quote: Also, exploitation was and is alive and well today byt the west itself.

AHAHHAHAHA... leftist talk! Just a bunch of hot air!

	29-07-2002 02:40									#77
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moomin: I am sure you have much more experience of the Soviet Union than I do. I have some childhood experiences , and never claimed to have more myself. I have also the accounts of my father, mother , and grandmother, multiple relatives, and friends .

quote: Almost certainly. Russia would be better now if it had undergone a union with the US too

I am not absolutely sure. I'd rather have Ecthelion answer that.

	29-07-2002 02:42									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger If the Nazis were Socialists

What part of National Socialist do you find hard to parse?

quote: then why did most of their big capitalists come out of the war with their fortunes intact?

For the same reason people with money and influence manage to hang on in every system, I guess. Hint: the 60 million Soviet victims weren't exactly all rich bourgeoise pigs either.

	29-07-2002 02:44									#79
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper What part of National Socialist do you find hard to parse?

A little birdie tells me that North Korea calls itself a democratic people's republic, but this may not be so.

	29-07-2002 02:47									#80
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Frogger, give it a rest. Communism doesn't win against capitalism or any forms of mixed capitalism.

	29-07-2002 02:53									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson 1)I have seen Him! I have seen Him! 2)I believe He's still there, but I may be wrong. 3)I disagree with You. Stalin was completely incompetent when it comes to the army stuff, and he murdered the most valuable part of the army. If not so-called Soviet communism Germany would be defeated in much shorter time.

1) I´ve seen him on a postcard

2) I think he´s buried in the Kremlin wall or something. IIRC it was a burial ceremony for him in 1992(?)

3) I agree totally.

quote: A question is if the war started if not Stalin and his alliance with Hitler in 1939.

IMO WWII wouldn´t have happened if Trotsky had won the power struggle. Why?

The German communist party wouldn´t have wasted it´s time battling the social-democrats and letting Hitler sneak up to power.

Soviet under Trotsky would NEVER have allowed the KPD voting for Hitler as chancellor.

In short, the USSR under Trotsky would never have allowed the nazis to come to power. No nazis = no WWII.

But then again, maybe we would´ve ve had a war where the allies had supported Nazi-Germany against the Soviet Union. The nazis were capitalists after all. And with the Soviets out of the way the nazis could continue their expansion and the allied support would eventually come back to bite them in the ass. (Compare this to other dictators willingly supported by the US)

	29-07-2002 02:56									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger A little birdie tells me that North Korea calls itself a democratic people's republic, but this may not be so.

And this same little birdie told you you could disregard the NSDAP program just because it hurts so bad to acknowledge Hitler & his minions where Socialists?

	29-07-2002 02:57									#83
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If Trotsky won the power struggle we would all be living in a worker's paradise right now.

	29-07-2002 03:01									#84
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Please provide evidence of them being socialists, moomin. Their membership included every big capitalist in the country, they were allied to the right wing of the German political spectrum, they hated unions and communists, they did business with all the large corporations and nationalised only minimally...

	29-07-2002 03:02									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X The nazis were capitalists after all.

No they werent. They were more like socialists who wanted heavy government interference with the economy.

quote: (Compare this to other dictators willingly supported by the US)

Like who? Can I name any that the US supported that executed twenty million of their own people?

quote: If Trotsky won the power struggle we would all be living in a worker's paradise right now.

You mean slave like conditions.

	29-07-2002 03:04									#86
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Frogger, the nazis were not capitalists. And furthermore executing the jewish people proves that, because jews were capitalist bankers and business people.

Frogger, no need to spew out more lies.

	29-07-2002 03:07									#87
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Russia isn't prosperous... It can be in the future thanks to mr Putin but it isn't...
Lets put it this way; in USSR everyone were poor, but everyone -despite all the political opppresion- could be sure they'll survive. Under democracy, some people got very very very rich and they held the rating on average level, but generally most of people got even poorer, to a status that can't be worse, and no Putin will ever change it. For Russian oligarchs and perhaps middle class someday, democratic
changes were a good thing, but I doubt that for most of Russians..

	29-07-2002 03:08									#88
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quote: And furthermore executing the jewish people proves that, because jews were capitalist bankers and business people

I suggest you reread their propaganda. In their minds Jews were both bankers (they hated "speculative" capitalism, but embraced "investor" capitalism) and also the spearhead of the Communist revolution. Nobody ever accused them of being logical...

	29-07-2002 03:08									#89
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quote: and no Putin will ever change it.

And that is where you are wrong... the Russian middle class is booming under Putin...

	29-07-2002 03:09									#90
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quote: Frogger, the nazis were not capitalists. And furthermore executing the jewish people proves that, because jews were capitalist bankers and business people

not quite. The Nazis allowed the German capitalists to take over the jewish capitalists' factories. also , not all jews were rich.