29-07-2002 21:29									#1
	Our government is in the hands of milleniarians Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Fundamentally unsound

quote: The most popular novel in America right now is one in which the world is tyrannized by the former secretary general of the U.N., who operates from Iraq, and his global force of storm troopers, called "peacekeepers." Revered rabbis evangelize for Christ, repenting Israel's "specific national sin" of "[r]ejecting the messiahship of Jesus." Much of the world is deceived by a false prophet, part of the inner circle of the Antichrist, who seems a lot like the pope -- he's a Catholic cardinal, "all robed and hatted and vested in velvet and piping." "The Remnant," which debuted at No. 1 on the New York Times bestseller list, is the 10th entry in Jerry B. Jenkins and Tim LaHaye's phenomenally popular "Left Behind" series, a Tom Clancy-meets-Revelation saga of the Rapture, the Tribulation and, presumably, the eventual return of Jesus. Last year's "Desecration," the ninth volume of a projected 14, was 2001's bestselling hardcover novel. There is probably very little overlap between Salon's readership and the audience for apocalyptic Christian fiction, but these books and their massive success deserve attention if only for what they tell us about the core beliefs of a great many people in this country, people whose views shape the way America behaves in the world. After all, Tim LaHaye isn't merely a fringe figure like Hal Lindsey, the former king of the genre, whose 1970 Christian end-times book "The Late Great Planet Earth" was the bestseller of that decade. The former co-chairman of Jack Kemp's presidential campaign, LaHaye was a member of the original board of directors of the Moral Majority and an organizer of the Council for National Policy, which ABCNews.com has called "the most powerful conservative organization in America you've never heard of" and whose membership has included John Ashcroft, Tommy Thompson and Oliver North. George W. Bush is still refusing to release a tape of a speech he gave to the group in 1999.

...

quote: "While it is true that in the broad spectrum of Protestant Christianity there are multiple views of the end-times scenario, the pre-millennialist theology found in the Left Behind Series is the prominent view among evangelical Christians, including their leading seminaries such as Talbot Seminary, Trinity Seminary and Dallas Theological Seminary."

GAH!!!!! It's Reagan all over again!!!! How do these wing-nuts keep getting in to our government where they can shove their ancient Old Testiment moralities and insanities on us?

	29-07-2002 21:36									#3
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I should think that as atheist as you claim to be, you'd be disturbed by a millenarian evengelical sect running our government.

	29-07-2002 21:37									#4
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I am tired of your weak arguments with unfounded evidence. And I happen to like Reagan.

Anyways, I may be atheist but I see no solid evidence to support this argument.

	29-07-2002 21:39									#5
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Che, don't be silly. As long as rich people are making money, why should Fez care about what the government does or what views they hold?

	29-07-2002 21:40									#6
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I grew up being taught that we were in the "end times", and that "Jesus is coming back soon". Its a terrible thing to believe, because if you really believe it then there seems to be little point in living.

The fact that this writer is so popular is somewhat worrying, as many americans seem to have problems discerning fiction from fact. No doubt he is a talented writer, but his message is one of propaganda and fear.

If theres one thing that keeps people in organised religion its fear. Fear of hell, fear of being "left behind" in the rapture, fear of God.

God is a loving father, not a stern and legal monarch whose chief pleasure is to repremand us.

	29-07-2002 21:40									#7
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The government is the government. They don't hold any views besides governing those who put them there.

And Boris quit spitting in my face with arbitrary arguments against my views.

	29-07-2002 21:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I grew up being taught that we were in the "end times", and that "Jesus is coming back soon". Its a terrible thing to believe, because if you really believe it then there seems to be little point in living.

And when people who believe this are running the government . . . ?

	29-07-2002 21:44									#9
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And when people who believe this are running the government . . . ?

There are many people holding different beliefs running the government, I even bet there are atheists, agnostics, muslims (well to a very small extent), jews, christians... etc. What one or two people think in the government does not make up what the entire government thinks.

Get my catch?

	29-07-2002 21:45									#10
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Fez, arbitrary arguments against arbitrary opinions is, IMO, perfectly sound. I don't think you really know what "arbitrary" means anyway. My post was based on everything you've said on this board, which is unquestioned support for capitalism and for those who claim to be its staunchest advocates, no matter what their other beliefs tend to be.

	29-07-2002 21:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And when people who believe this are running the government . . . ?

That is a big problem.

Unfortunately it means religious dogma is incorporated into govt policy.

	29-07-2002 21:52									#12
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Boris: I don't care what other people believe, they have a right to believe in what they want. But I know the government has a variety of beliefs in it. Non-religious people to religious people take part in the government.

I don't give my unquestioned support to religious nuts because I don't like what they believe in.

	29-07-2002 21:52									#13
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Logically, why should Government officials be required to have no faith? Since the majority of americans are christian...

Separation of church and state is a doctrine under which the government gives no money to, nor recieves no money from, religious powers. It does not imply atheism.

I don't hold such veiws, but why should the people elected be required to deny their faith? Seems to me you should make different choices in the voting booth...

	29-07-2002 21:53									#14
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Alright Che, let's look at what we have here.. We have 1 of the authors of some book being an organizer for an orginzation that a few higher-ups in the administration were once part of. Hardly Scary. I see no evidence that GWB or the administration has any large-scale belief in this, nor have I seen any real large-scale attempt to impose Old-Testament morality on us-- all I can recall so far is banning aid to promote abortion worldwide, and restricting ceratin types of cloning reserach- but the latter of those actions was popular and supported by all types of Christians, not just a few far-right Protestants.

	29-07-2002 21:53									#15
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Dan, you are right... but in the government people do express their own views, and there can be atheists, christians, jews or even muslims taking part in the government. Afterall, the US government does not exclude people based on their religion. You may disagree with that statement but I will stand by it.

	29-07-2002 21:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Severn Logically, why should Government officials be required to have no faith? Since the majority of americans are christian...

That's not the problem. The problem is that a group of people with a milleniarian cult mindset are in charge of our country. These people believe that these are the end times. What kind of policy would come out of such a mindset?

Well, according to the article, keeping Israel at war is one of those policies, because an Arab-Israeli war is supposedly the cue for the Rapture.

	29-07-2002 22:00									#17
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quote: The problem is that a group of people with a milleniarian cult mindset are in charge of our country.

I have to disagree there. I see no evidence of that.

	29-07-2002 22:02									#18
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That's because you only see what you want to see.

	29-07-2002 22:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's because you only see what you want to see.

Same for you.

	29-07-2002 22:09									#20
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Che:

Fez is right here (I didn't just say that ). There is no proof he is a milleniarian mindset. He is just writing a novel. People do write novels of fanciful things, you know.

	29-07-2002 22:11									#21
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www.leftbehind.com

	29-07-2002 22:13									#22
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And Che, so under a dictatorship as your's people aren't allowed to practice their own beliefs? Let them have their site... what difference does it make?

	29-07-2002 22:14									#23
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I have no dictatorship. . . . well, in my EUII and CivIII games, but really, they don't count.



I think this is a good place to quote Kruschev on the advisability of repressing religion. "Christianity is like a glass of water. If you leave it alone, it just sits there. If you tip it over, it spreads everywhere."

	29-07-2002 22:16									#24
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But if you were a leader would you ban religion? I am atheist but I would respect others because people are entitled to their own beliefs.

	29-07-2002 22:20									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I grew up being taught that we were in the "end times", and that "Jesus is coming back soon". Its a terrible thing to believe, because if you really believe it then there seems to be little point in living.

I grew up being taught a similar thing, but have come to believe something different was meant, or should have been meant - We are all near judgement day, that day being the day we die, and so entirely subjective.

quote: Unfortunately it means religious dogma is incorporated into govt policy.

I see no fundamental difference between religous dogma and other (such as social) dogmas and personal beliefs.

	29-07-2002 22:25									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Fez But if you were a leader would you ban religion? I am atheist but I would respect others because people are entitled to their own beliefs.

You don't read much, do you? Since analgy seems to be beyond your ken, howabout this for an answer, no, I would not suppress religion. Wouldn't help though, either, as our government does. They'd have to pay taxes.

	29-07-2002 22:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I see no fundamental difference between religous dogma and other (such as social) dogmas and personal beliefs.

The difference is that religous dogma is promoted as being sacred. This also happens within other forms of dogma ("culture" is the new religion), but not to as great an extent.

	29-07-2002 22:38									#28
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Che, you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Then again, you are a dirty commie .

	29-07-2002 22:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The difference is that religous dogma is promoted as being sacred. This also happens within other forms of dogma ("culture" is the new religion), but not to as great an extent.

The sacredness of it is not a practical implication. Most people don't think religious beliefs are sacred. I am a religous person, and regularly go to church, but I still question everything, even if its "sacred".

Maybe I give people too much credit, but I would think people believe religious teachings because it sounds reasonable and desirable, more than because they fear being damned for eternity if they don't believe.

I also think people are more likely to believe in the claims of commercial products than the claims of religous preachers.

People in government believing in economic falsehoods is scarier to me than those who believe in religous falsehoods.

	29-07-2002 23:25									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia No doubt he is a talented writer, but his message is one of propaganda and fear.

Actually, he isn't. The writing is horrible, full of technological errors and storyline inconsistancies. Not to mention the fact that he keeps introducing new characters for no better reason than he wants the opportunity to share another 'witness'-type story without killing off many of the old characters, so his characters are all wandering aimlessly through a more or less plotless book.