30-07-2002 23:34									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah, and the Germans kinda won the final phase on THAT front. They may have lost the war, but they whipped the Russians.

When and how they WHIPPED the Russians?
We signed a peace treaty with them and lost Ukraine, but after short period of time we took it back. Is it called a victory on THAT front?

	30-07-2002 23:38									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Krayzeenbk 1) It never was insecure

In 1993, nuclear thefts in the Northern Fleet (a navy base) illuminated that criminals can neutralize alarm systems with wire cutters while "warehouse guards are quietly sleeping." (FBIS/ 9/04/97) Also in 1993, there were eleven attempted thefts of uranium, approximately 900 attemps at illegal entry of nuclear facilities, and roughly 700 instances where workers attempted to steal secret documents.(Allison, Avoiding Nuclear Anarchy) These examples convey a precedent and given the current situation within the military there is no reason to expect that these attemps would diminish.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~ghannum/rusnuke.html

Here's another source: http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/...adow/052002.htm

	30-07-2002 23:44									#93
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc 1) So they finally decided to improve the security of thier arsenal? Good. 2) A nuclear arsenal isn't a guarentee of superpower status. One need only look at France to learn as much. 3) Russia will only be a superpower again if it learns how to build subs that don't sink to the bottom of the sea.

1)Agreed with Krayzeenbk.

2) Agreed with Krayzeenbk.

3) A couple of comments:
First of all, I think this statement is insult to honor of sailors who died on Kursk. Secondly, Russia is not a single country, which lost its submarines in peace times. As far as I know USA lost 3 of them in peace times.
Third few weeks ago we build another “Typhoon” class submarine. When your scientists will create something equal to our “Typhoon” class, please let me know.

	30-07-2002 23:48									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc In 1993, nuclear thefts in the Northern Fleet (a navy base) illuminated that criminals can neutralize alarm systems with wire cutters while "warehouse guards are quietly sleeping." (FBIS/ 9/04/97) Also in 1993, there were eleven attempted thefts of uranium, approximately 900 attemps at illegal entry of nuclear facilities, and roughly 700 instances where workers attempted to steal secret documents.(Allison, Avoiding Nuclear Anarchy) These examples convey a precedent and given the current situation within the military there is no reason to expect that these attemps would diminish. http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~ghannum/rusnuke.html Here's another source: http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/...adow/052002.htm

So where was there even at attempt to steal a nuclear weapon?

	30-07-2002 23:53									#95
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I'd like to point out that the average Russian criminal breaking into a fleet base would have no interest whatsoever in stealing a nuclear weapon... He can't use it, and if he were to sell it to somebody (as I've heard numerous Americans say), he would be VERY concerned that that somebody would then use it to blow him and his family up. Not very encouraging.

Find one instance of somebody stealing a large enough quantity, even a fraction of what's required, of weapons-grade material from a Russian site.

The average dude breaking into that base was probably looking for equipment, spare parts, or money.

Besides, looks like many were caught anyways - I really don't think anybody in Russia is about to allow unauthorized access to nuclear weapons, but everyone in America seems certain that they would.

	30-07-2002 23:57									#96
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~ghannum/rusnuke.html Here's another source: http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/...adow/052002.htm

MOSCOW - Maxim Shingarkin wanted to prove a point about the security of Russia's vast network of aging and depressed nuclear facilities.
So one day in February, Shingarkin, an antinuclear campaigner for Greenpeace Russia, led a Russian legislator and a camera crew past unwitting guards, around fences, and into the heart of a supposedly high-security restricted area in Siberia where 3,000 tons of highly radioactive, spent nuclear fuel are stored.



An ANTINUCLEAR campaigner and a bunch of paparaci who hunt for cheap sensation (such as this entire article), will be the last people whose bs. Stories I will consider as true.

quote: Besides, looks like many were caught anyways - I really don't think anybody in Russia is about to allow unauthorized access to nuclear weapons, but everyone in America seems certain that they would.

Exactly

	31-07-2002 00:02									#97
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DinoDoc is right to a certain extent, Serb. Security is definetely lax.

But not to the absurd extent many claim.

It's very far-fetched to say somebody is going to drive out of a Soviet nuclear facility with nuclear-armed SS-25 missiles.


All of this is beside the point, lax security doesn't prevent the Russian government from using these missiles.

	31-07-2002 00:19									#98
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"When and how they WHIPPED the Russians?
We signed a peace treaty with them and lost Ukraine, but after short period of time we took it back. Is it called a victory on THAT front?"

You haven't taken it from Germans.
It was no-one's land after German collapse.
You didn't even manage to take it all...

P.S. Should I be touched?

	31-07-2002 00:41									#99
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Aha, you are already here.
I pochemy ty menya vsegda podstavlyaesh?

quote: You haven't taken it from Germans. Blah....blah...blah...You didn't even manage to take it all...

So, we haven't took it from Germans OR we didn't manage to take it all?
You should decide which is true.
And everything that we didn't took in that time we took in 1939.

quote: P.S. Should I be touched?

What do you mean?

	31-07-2002 00:52									#100
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...

	31-07-2002 00:52									#101
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Welcome to 3-digit world.

	31-07-2002 01:12									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I thought the term "superpower" had been deemed obsolete when little renegade nations started developing nuclear arsenals... Hey, wait! If the US loses its place as world superpower, does this mean people will stop trashing it? I wonder what everyone will do with all their free time THEN....

Tru dat.....

quote: But, sure I'm still absolutely sure that it's the best tank of the world. (Ok, at least M1A2 and T-80U share the first place)

OK my friend, the T-80 is a formidable tank, but it is no where near the Abrahms. The T-80, if I remember correctly, still uses welded steel armor like he tanks of WWII. The M1, M1-A1 (Used in Gulf War), and M1-A2 Abrahms all have incredibly powerful composite armor that is all but indestructible(practically). The only thing so far in combat able to disable one of these tanks have been our depleted uranian 120mm sabot rounds fired from a friendly tank on accident.

Of the 17 nuclear subs lost in history, theUS has lost 3. Russia has lost 13 (or 11, dont remember exactly- but it is one of those 2 numbers)

Russias lax security is very scary. It is very concievable for a terrorist group to infiltrate these places as described - why wouldnt it be?

	31-07-2002 01:40									#103
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http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t80/

Don't underestimate any tank.
Welcome to the world of explosive reactive armor, Kramerman. EDIT: with the exception that the U.S. seems to have neglected to retrofit the Abrams with ERA, wtf.... I thought they carried ERA.
The Abrams tank uses very, very similar armor to that of the T-80, I don't know where you get your information from.

As for the subs, the Russian sub fleet is also bigger (at least according to my sources), but yeah they kinda lost too many

Once a terrorist group gets in, what can it do? Blow up the place? That's not as much of a problem for America as it is for Russia.

Last edited by Krayzeenbk on 31-07-2002 at 01:47

	31-07-2002 02:42									#104
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I see the U.S. as slowly losing influence. We've lost our identity and are decaying at the roots. I predict massive political and social strife in the U.S. within 50 years, due to, among other things, an uncontrolled flood of illegal immigrants who are unwilling to assimilate. Europe and Russia are declining as well. They don't even have the birth rates to keep up their current population levels. The only reason that population grows at all in Europe is because of the flood of Arabic immigigrants. Those Arabs are unwilling to assimilate. 100 years from now, I it is possible that white people will be the minority in Europe and the E.U. will be an Islamic entity.Western civilization is in a state of rapid decline, and none of us seems to want to do anything about it. Therefore, our politicians simply bury their heads in the sand and fret about the stock market.

Anyway, I think that in 50 years time China will be the world's dominant force. The U.S. will be a land of turmoil.

	31-07-2002 02:46									#105
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You read too much Pat Buchanan.

	31-07-2002 02:52									#106
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You read too much Pat Buchanan.

lol. Yep. I recommend Death of the West. Fascinating book.

	31-07-2002 02:58									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Krayzeenbk http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t80/ Don't underestimate any tank. Welcome to the world of explosive reactive armor, Kramerman. EDIT: with the exception that the U.S. seems to have neglected to retrofit the Abrams with ERA, wtf.... I thought they carried ERA. The Abrams tank uses very, very similar armor to that of the T-80, I don't know where you get your information from. As for the subs, the Russian sub fleet is also bigger (at least according to my sources), but yeah they kinda lost too many Once a terrorist group gets in, what can it do? Blow up the place? That's not as much of a problem for America as it is for Russia.

Sorry, i was thinking of the T-72. But I just saw a History channel deal on main battle tanks, and it spoke of the US M1-A2 to be supperior the T-80, due to the better armor. And it did say T-80, not T-72. It said how T-80 armor was still vulnerable to shaped charge explosives, like what TOW and Hellfire missiles have, while the Abrhams composite armor is all but impervious to this.

THE RUSSIAN SUB FLEET WAS BIGGER. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, they have downsized dramatically, and the US has a bigger Sub fleet. And the US has always had a larger Surface Fleet, since WWii, since then having the largest in the world.

No. Your missing the point. Once a terrorist gets its hands on a nuke, it can transport them. That means this is a major problem for the US.

Kman

	31-07-2002 03:02									#108
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Easter Island will become the next world power in about 15 years.

	31-07-2002 03:16									#109
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quote: lol. Yep. I recommend Death of the West. Fascinating book.

[America 150 Years Ago Mode]Immigration is going to ruin our precious land, I'm telling you! The threat of the Papist Irishmen coming in in every boat imaginable is too great to ignore! If we don't do something then in 150 years there'll be Pope-loving booze-swilling Micks everywhere, spawning children like the white man can't - why, I predict that in 150 years you'll have some Papist Irishman named Mick O'Toole or Patrick Buchanan or something running for President! The infamy![/America 150 Years Ago Mode]

	31-07-2002 03:19									#110
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quote: No. Your missing the point. Once a terrorist gets its hands on a nuke, it can transport them. That means this is a major problem for the US.

My thought was you might be able to walk past the guard on the way in, but you might not be able to drive back past him in a truck with a missile on its back

And if you did, then you'd be in the middle of Russia in a truck with a nuke on its back, with the Russian armed forces out to get you Not a very pleasant scenario for a terrorists hehe

As for the T-80 - you're probably right, but from what I gather, not much data is really available since it isn't very often that modern U.S. weapons get fired at modern Russian tanks and vice versa.
I just have the impression that reactive armor was designed specifically for the purpose of defense vs. shaped charges, and Russian tanks were retrofitted with ERA very early on. When a shell detonates an ERA patch, the explosive "penetrating force" of the charge is deflected away from the tank. The Abrams' approach to armor looks like just brute force dense material (depleted uranium), for the most part, which is good, but does nothing to deflect or mitigate the attack.
Depleted uranium - doesn't do anything special if you can find something just as or almost as dense to put into your shells.

A serious advantage of the M1 would be, for example, the nuclear/biological/chemical protection it offers... this is something that the Russians never had time to go back and put into their tank forces (although the T-90, which might eventually see service, has this feature).


Putin's sub policy - phase out the old subs very fast.
Phase in new subs (like the Kursk) slower.
In the end, however, Putin assured the military that the sub fleet was going to be increased in size.

Besides, it WAS bigger back when most of those subs sank.

As a side note, Russia had a pretty impressive crew survival rate for so many subs lost (in one sub, about half the crew got out, in another, almost the entire crew did, IIRC). Of course there was also the sub that plunged into the Pacific ocean, and the Kursk.

	31-07-2002 03:21									#111
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Ooh, what a sweet vision...

	31-07-2002 03:28									#112
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quote: We signed a peace treaty with them and lost Ukraine, but after short period of time we took it back.

AFTER the war! In WW1, the Germans destroyed your armies. It was really the only decisive front.

	31-07-2002 03:52									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu [America 150 Years Ago Mode]Immigration is going to ruin our precious land, I'm telling you! The threat of the Papist Irishmen coming in in every boat imaginable is too great to ignore! If we don't do something then in 150 years there'll be Pope-loving booze-swilling Micks everywhere, spawning children like the white man can't - why, I predict that in 150 years you'll have some Papist Irishman named Mick O'Toole or Patrick Buchanan or something running for President! The infamy![/America 150 Years Ago Mode]

You haven't read the book, have you?

	31-07-2002 04:41									#114
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist You haven't read the book, have you?

Pat is scare-mongering. One of America's major strength is its ability to attract quality immigrants AND assimilate them. General Collin Powell was one of them. I'm one of them, too.

Many other countries have actually complained about America's 'brain drain' effect. China, India, and Russia are losing their best scientists and engineers to the US at an alarming rate.
At American high tech companies, it's not rare to see foreigners or immigrants making up the majority of engineers.


But Pat may be right about Europe. Europe is generally a very closed society that treats non-native looking people like second rate citizens. That harms the integration of immigrants. If a country's unemployment goes up by a few percentage points and you have people parading in every big cities yelling 'Auslaender Raus', then you can't expect much loyalty from immigrants for such a host country.

Maybe the best solution is here is to stop immigration all together, just to keep everyone happy.

	31-07-2002 05:12									#115
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Looks like a few Russians are jealous........ Not that suprising, of course, considering how much richer we are, how much more freedom we have, and howe we beat you in the cold war.

	31-07-2002 05:14									#116
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Har har har... rub it in!!!

	31-07-2002 06:40									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Serb First of all, I think this statement is insult to honor of sailors who died on Kursk.

On this I agree 100%. Plus all of the other boats that were lost.

quote: Secondly, Russia is not a single country, which lost its submarines in peace times. As far as I know USA lost 3 of them in peace times.

We lost 2. U.S.S Thresher SSN 593 and U.S.S Scorpion SSN 589

quote: Third few weeks ago we build another “Typhoon” class submarine. When your scientists will create something equal to our “Typhoon” class, please let me know.

We have the Ohio class, nothing else is needed.

A side note; It will be a real long time before the US falls. Why because most of the people born in the 30s, 40s, and 50 are still around and will be able to teach our grandchildren how to do things. They in turn will teach their grandchildren, so it is going to be a long time before we fall.

Now in 20 years China will be a problem, because she will think she strong enought to take on the US and just might try some thing stupid. But then all of the old guard will be dead and just maybe the younger generation of commie may think more like M. Gorbachev.

And never forget our production captacity if needed. Just go back to WW II and see how fast they did it and remember we can today out produce them by 10 to 1.

	31-07-2002 09:25									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman OK my friend, the T-80 is a formidable tank, but it is no where near the Abrahms. The T-80, if I remember correctly, still uses welded steel armor like he tanks of WWII.

T-80 is a very old tank. I was talking about T-80U which is absolutely new tank.
Some info you could find here:
http://www.rbs.ru/vttv/99/firms/OZTM/e-t80u.htm

http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/MBT/t-80.html

quote: The M1, M1-A1 (Used in Gulf War), and M1-A2 Abrahms all have incredibly powerful composite armor that is all but indestructible(practically). The only thing so far in combat able to disable one of these tanks have been our depleted uranian 120mm sabot rounds fired from a friendly tank on accident.

Yeah, Chobham armor is nice conventional armor, BUT it makes your tank MUCH heavier.
I recomend you to check those links. You my find there a very interesting information about unique features of Russian tanks, such as an active Protection System, ERA and jaming complexes:


http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/kontakt5.html

http://armor.vif2.ru/Tanks/EQP/shtora.html

quote: Of the 17 nuclear subs lost in history, theUS has lost 3. Russia has lost 13 (or 11, dont remember exactly- but it is one of those 2 numbers)

I don't know, men. As far as I remember we've lost only FIVE subs.

	31-07-2002 09:28									#119
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quote: I don't know, men. As far as I remember we've lost only FIVE subs.

I second that, I have no idea where 13 came from.

As for the T-80U, it's not too much of an improvement.
The tanks are similar enough in characteristics anyways to have it boil down to the skill/luck of the tank crews (after all, what good is your uber-shell and the enemy's sissie armor if you miss? )

Just my 3 cents

	31-07-2002 09:31									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Looks like a few Russians are jealous........ Not that suprising, of course, considering how much richer we are, how much more freedom we have, and howe we beat you in the cold war.

I never liked you. So, (forgive me Heresson ) please pay attention on peice of Russian art of the beggining of last century. This sign is called- "our answer to capitalistic scums like you".
Enjoy your view and have a nice day