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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:21
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A propos French discussions and its unique politics in Europe. As You know EU forces us to close our eastern borders, and showed no mercy when we asked them to make it easier for our Ukrainian and Lithuanian allies
to cross the border even now. The question is city of Kaliningrad, earlier Koenigsberg alias Królewiec.
It's Russian enclave between Poland and Lithuania,
with access to Baltic sea, a great military base. When Poland and Lithuania will enter EU, it will be enclaved in it. Russia knew about it since a long time, but only now it styrted discussing it. The enclave lives mostly of little trade with Poland, and is more and more dependant from German and Polish economy. There is a kind of separatism there and Russia afraids that EU would try to vassalise it.
Anyway it demands "corridors" through Lithuania and/or Poland, but agrees not on any visas, even though EU promised it cheap, or even free of charge and accessible visas, a thing that they had no chance to offer Lithuania
or Ukraine earlier. And now mr Chirac had a trip to Russia
and, to get a worthy contract, stated that visas for Kaliningrad citizens would offend their honour and stuff.
The wuestion is; if a Kaliningradian would like to travel to Russia through lets say USA, will it offend his honour too?
Or if i'd like to go to another Polish city crossing entire planet, should I be offended that the entire planet doesn't belong to my state?
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:21
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Here it goes again;
Snapscase: mprimo, Russia wo0n't agree on any special rights for Kaliningradians only. Secundo; Kaliningradians have a little to do with rest of Russia. Most of them never visited any other region of it.
Serb;
In fact I can't movbe freely to Polish cities, to Berlin, to Opawa, to Kiezmark, to Lwów, to Grodno, to Wilno and to Królewiec for example...  , but except for those I can,
but Poland doesn't have exclaved territories or colonies.
Russians have full right to move freely in between their borders. But Poland and Lithuania, if You ahve forgotten,
are not iin your borders. You are free to use sea or air way.
And tell me, is Turkey demanding a corridor through Georgia, Russia, Ukraine, Romania and Bulgria to Thrace?
Or Denmark through Sweden, Finland, Russia, Byelorus and Poland to Jutland? Kaliningrad is a bit more distant. Your pain! You should have thought about that when You were taking it after ww2.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Serb;
In fact I can't movbe freely to Polish cities, to Berlin, to Opawa, to Kiezmark, to Lwów, to Grodno, to Wilno and to Królewiec for example..., but except for those I can,
but Poland doesn't have exclaved territories or colonies.
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Then you know nothing about problems of that kind.
quote:
Russians have full right to move freely in between their borders. But Poland and Lithuania, if You ahve forgotten, are not iin your borders. |
No. It is you who perhaps forget about one simple thing. We have an agreement with those countries, while they weren’t a part of EU. An agreement by which Kaliningrad’s citizens could move to “main” Russia” without any visas. As long as they decided to join EU they should think that this decision would heart RIGHTS of other people in foreign countries. Both of the sides should find a compromise solution, because no one in Russia don’t prevent include of Baltic states in EU (because they are sovereign countries, but WE HAVE A TREATY) and no one in EU don’t deny that Russian citizens of Kaliningrad has right to move within their country freely.
quote:
You are free to use sea or air way. |
Blah, you portray it like ONLY the problem of private citizens. The situation is far away from picture you are trying to portray. The administrative center of Russian Federation SHOULD have full access to one of its territories; to have capability to manage it’s properly. All kind of access. Otherwise it will lead to isolation of this territory, all kinds of isolation: political, economical, cultural etc. THIS IS THE PROBLEM.
quote:
And tell me, is Turkey demanding a corridor through Georgia, Russia, Ukraine, Romania and Bulgria to Thrace?
Or Denmark through Sweden, Finland, Russia, Byelorus and Poland to Jutland? Kaliningrad is a bit more distant. Your pain! |
I have no idea what the f*ck are you talking about.
Does citizen of Alaska should have visa to go through Canada to “main” USA?
Even after WW1 the victorious countries let an access for defeated Germany to its exclave.
quote:
You should have thought about that when You were taking it after ww2. |
Shut the f*ck up. Now you really drove my mad Heresson. Because one of the men who took Kenigsberg – one of the toughest nazi fortresses, was contused there, and now this man is paralyzed since more then a month, and more probably he will never walk again. This man is my grandfather. SO SHUT THE **** UP. Don’t you realize that sometimes your speeches are not funny? That your constant sayings like- “you should abandon this territory, you should abandon that territory, and you should give it to Poland.”. What have you done to control this territory? The history is very fair judge. No matter what you would say, everything will remain how this judge decided. Case is closet.
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bogi
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It was Lithuanian first then it went to Poland which in our mistatke we invited the germans there. And it was in poland till about the late 1600s. Then it became german in 1800s it became prussia, in 1920 it was split,in 1945 it was split again and became russian with a promise to give it back to lithuanaia in years.It belonges to Lithuana.
No one in the region wants the germans to have kallingrad we rather have the russians then the germans anyday.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I suggest that they get used to it. Sovereign countries have a right to require visas for entry. If Lithuania and Poland are requiring them, then Russia can do precious little about it. |
Every citizen of sovereign country has also right to move freely within borders of it’s own country. We have an agreement with countries which gone be included in EU. The EU laws demands that those countries should abandon agreements with us. Why citizens our country should suffer because of EU rules?
Why we can't find a compromise solution, a solution which don't heart rights of both sides?
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:21
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Gangerwolf, read at least the first post of this thread, then post. Bye.
It's either visas or no visas. The compromise were visas free of charge, and Moscow doesn't like it.
Your speech was interesting, Serb, I haven't looked on it from that side, but it hurts the rights of all countrie except for EU, then. Why aren't they protesting?
I'm no specialist on international law, but I guess that if
f.e Spain would liek to cut down on immigration by securing
its borders, Marocco can't treat it as violation of agreements,
can it... Every country have full right to make such border laws as it wishes. It's no two-side agreement, that's a law
of each state, so it's not a matter of some other country's
rights.
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02-08-2002 15:28
Who was calling for me?
Oh it's Heresson.
Who else could start it?
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