07-08-2002 03:06									#91
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why, was your little girl raped and murdered? How I might feel about a person who injured me directly, and about a person who has not affected my in any way are two different things. The sad fact is, you are almost as disgusting a person, because you enjoy the thought of committing torture. You rationalize it away by claiming that these are unworthy people, but the fact is, if you can torture them, you can torture anyone. You're ****ing sick. The world needs to be protected from sick ****s like you.

herm... I dont recall ever saying I wanted to torture them... only that they are proably deserving of torture, after doing such a thing to a child. I dont understand your rationalization of

quote: but the fact is, if you can torture them, you can torture anyone.

. Does that make any sense to anybody else? Just because (hypothetically, though i truley dont believe in torcher, it is just horriblly inhuman) you can torture murderer/rapist/ pedaphiles, does NOT mean you could torture anybody. That is just like saying if you could put murderers to death, then you could out anybody to death. Or if you could put thieves i jail, you could put anybody in jail. There is no rational thought behind what you said.

EDIT: At least that is the case in the US because we have laws nd reguations that are put in place by the people and are followed by public servants. I dont know what it si like in your country. That very well may not be the case. And if that be, i am very sorry for you.

	07-08-2002 03:07									#92
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That is complete BS, Che. I can't even understand how you can believe the stuff that you post. He is not dreaming of torturing just another Joe on the street, he is stating outrage against a sick killer. It is not a mere rationalization. This murderer IS AN UNWORTHY PERSON!
He deserves death for his heinous crime. If you aren't outraged by his crime then you are the sick ****. What is wrong with you? You still haven't answered me.What would you do about this situation? You have problems, Che.

	07-08-2002 03:13									#93
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I would not torture anyone. The worst I'll ever do to a bad guy is to let nature deal with him/her.

Back to topic. Che, you seem to have more sympathy with murderers than with victims.

	07-08-2002 03:32									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman herm... I dont recall ever saying I wanted to torture them...

Let me refresh your memory...

quote: Death is a cake walk compared to what I would do if put in a room with a sicko like that...

One would naturally assume that you were referring to torture here...

	07-08-2002 03:40									#95
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Let me refresh your memory... One would naturally assume that you were referring to torture here...

I see....
Well I was refering to jacking them a few time in the jaw, but i guess that could be considered torture, even from my weak arms. But that was all in fantasy none the less. I would never enter a room with a killer for two reasons, 1) I am a scrawny-ass teenager who would get his ass kicked (probably murdered...), 2) I am not a violent person, and unless I was totally enraged - say by him raping my child - then I would not have what it takes to strike him.
Edit: I know I could never have what it takes to torture someone, no matter what. After hearing the first scream of pain I would probably start crying and run away....

Kman

	07-08-2002 03:41									#96
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist He deserves death for his heinous crime.

When Che called Kramer a sick ****, I'm pretty sure that he was referring to Kramer's desire to torture somebody, not necesarily his desire to kill somebody. So, did you mean to say "he deserves to be tortured for his heinous crime"?

quote: If you aren't outraged by his crime then you are the sick ****.

Did Che say he wasn't outraged? Saying "You're a sick **** for wanting to torture somebody" is not equivalent to saying "murder is good." In fact, it's saying pretty much the opposite, so I'm not sure how you managed to draw the conclusion that Che is pleased by murder...

	07-08-2002 03:43									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Che, you seem to have more sympathy with murderers than with victims.

What makes you draw that conclusion? From what I've read, he hasn't seemed very sympathetic to murderers, unless you think that "doesn't think that torture is just" is equivalent to "molly-coddles murders."

	07-08-2002 03:47									#98
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I must say that the concept of capital punishment fills me with ambivalence...I can't say I have sympathy for the elimination of murderers and other such related thugs, but my concern is just the execution of someone who is innocent by mistake...and lets face it, it is not as rare as we think.

So with this thought in mind, against.

	07-08-2002 03:49									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman 2) I am not a violent person, and unless I was totally enraged - say by him raping my child - then I would not have what it takes to strike him.

Do you mean you'd strike him during the crime, or after? I mean, I'd have no compunction against twisting off somebody's neck if they were in the process of, say, killing somebody, but twisting off their neck after the fact wouldn't accomplish much except make me a murderer.

	07-08-2002 03:53									#100
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger What makes you draw that conclusion? From what I've read, he hasn't seemed very sympathetic to murderers, unless you think that "doesn't think that torture is just" is equivalent to "molly-coddles murders."

Really? He seems to be more upset about victims(family members) venting their angers than murderers carrying out their heineous deeds.

	07-08-2002 03:55									#101
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quote: When Che called Kramer a sick ****, I'm pretty sure that he was referring to Kramer's desire to torture somebody, not necesarily his desire to kill somebody. So, did you mean to say "he deserves to be tortured for his heinous crime"?

I dont have a desire to torure people! Would yall quit saying this. And perhaps such a person is deserving of torture, but I am not the one who could make that decision, nor the one to enforce it *shivers*.
Again, let me reiterate if your child is ever brutalized, I am sure you would have the desire to torture them. You, like myself, would probably never go through with it if you had the chance, but you would still be gald that he is going to be out to death none the less.

	07-08-2002 03:56									#102
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 I dont think you will ever and under all circumstances be certain that no inoccent will be convicted.

You are correct that no one will ever be able to give an absolute garrentee that an innocent person won't be convicted. With the correct system the number can be made vanishingly small but you cannot erase it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But this is a numbers game where you must weight the good verses the bad.

If one innocent life is lost but 10,000 innocent lives are saved because the killer was detered then I'd say we were still 9,999 innocent lives ahead. It sucks if your that one but it also sucks if you become one of the women a rapist kills after he's done or a man walking down the street who gets killed for his Swiss watch.

	07-08-2002 03:57									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Really? He seems to be more upset about victims(family members) venting their angers than murderers carrying out their heineous deeds.

I get that impression too. But perhaps I am misunderstanding him, like everyone misunderstood me as meaning "I want to torture people" when that is not what i truely want.

	07-08-2002 03:57									#104
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I think what Che is trying to say is that revenge is no basis for a legal/penal system.

	07-08-2002 04:05									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You are correct that no one will ever be able to give an absolute garrentee that an innocent person won't be convicted. With the correct system the number can be made vanishingly small but you cannot erase it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But this is a numbers game where you must weight the good verses the bad. If one innocent life is lost but 10,000 innocent lives are saved because the killer was detered then I'd say we were still 9,999 innocent lives ahead. It sucks if your that one but it also sucks if you become one of the women a rapist kills after he's done or a man walking down the street who gets killed for his Swiss watch.

you can get the same result with convicting them in jail for life.

that way you're protecting society but if they are inoccents they can get out (and receive a huge compensation).

	07-08-2002 04:05									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I think what Che is trying to say is that revenge is no basis for a legal/penal system.

On the contrary punishment and threats of punishment are a very sold basis for a penal system.

	07-08-2002 04:05									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You are correct that no one will ever be able to give an absolute garrentee that an innocent person won't be convicted. With the correct system the number can be made vanishingly small but you cannot erase it beyond a shadow of a doubt. But this is a numbers game where you must weight the good verses the bad. If one innocent life is lost but 10,000 innocent lives are saved because the killer was detered then I'd say we were still 9,999 innocent lives ahead. It sucks if your that one but it also sucks if you become one of the women a rapist kills after he's done or a man walking down the street who gets killed for his Swiss watch.

Tru dat.
And as technology progresses, perhaps the certainty of no innocents being put to death will rise even higher. i agree though that their will probably never be a full proof system where no innocent people are put to death with 100% certainty. But that is why CP should only be used when it is beyond a shadow of doubt of his guilt. Even then an innocent my slip through the cracks, but a price that could save many.

Kman

P.S. I draw the line just after flogging. Some may consider this torture, I consider it a spanking. But corporal punishment should only be for felons, not for those on death row. Their punishment is death, and that is high enough IMO.

	07-08-2002 04:07									#108
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Oedin, yes but not revenge.

	07-08-2002 04:10									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin On the contrary punishment and threats of punishment are a very sold basis for a penal system.

To an extent, but reform also makes a large part of this system also. I do not agree that the bloodlust of bereaved relatives should be heeded, despite how much sympathy they deserve.

	07-08-2002 04:10									#110
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you can get the same result with convicting them in jail for life. that way you're protecting society but if they are inoccents they can get out (and receive a huge compensation).

In the US, people are often on death row for as long as 20 years. If they can prove that there is not enough evidence to put them to death without a doubt in their guit, then they can have the DP overturned or postponed until a new trial can be set up (I believe thats how it works). This system has failed in the past mainly in the south, such as in Texas, due to racism and prejudice.

You would only be protecting society if you could detain them seperately from other prisoners who may get out of jail with the mindset of their murderous cellmate or what not - but then you lose the deterant factor of the death penalty.

	07-08-2002 04:24									#111
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you can get the same result with convicting them in jail for life. that way you're protecting society but if they are inoccents they can get out (and receive a huge compensation).

I've seen conflicting reports about this. The ones I saw that were done by non-political organizations, and thus the most believable, pointed to the death penalty being a stronger deterent then life in prison. Especially since people sentenced to life often don't serve a full life sentence before being parolled.

If the goal is to deter murderers from killing then life in prison isn't as affective as the death penalty.

	07-08-2002 04:26									#112
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it is if thats what it mean: life in prison = life in prison

	07-08-2002 04:32									#113
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Oedin, yes but not revenge.

Fear of legally sanctioned retribution qualifies as a threat of punishment in my book. Thus it is another effective tool for building a penal system which deters crime.

	07-08-2002 04:36									#114
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger When Che called Kramer a sick ****, I'm pretty sure that he was referring to Kramer's desire to torture somebody, not necesarily his desire to kill somebody. So, did you mean to say "he deserves to be tortured for his heinous crime"?

NO, but you're splitting hairs. From the context of Che's responses, he seems to be as much against executing him as he is torturing him. BTW, I do think that the man should be tortured to death. Isn't that what he did to the 5 year old girl? He deserves no better.

quote: Did Che say he wasn't outraged? Saying "You're a sick **** for wanting to torture somebody" is not equivalent to saying "murder is good." In fact, it's saying pretty much the opposite, so I'm not sure how you managed to draw the conclusion that Che is pleased by murder...

Yes he did, in a way. He was amazed as to how violently Kramer was reacting to something that didn't directly happen to him. To me, it seems that Che wasn't outraged about it at all. No, he wasn't saying that "murder is good", and my post didn't say anything leading to that. Che's answer was more like" I don't give a **** and anyone who is outraged about it is sick. That man is just as good as a person who didn't commit the crime, so why should he be put down? Anyone who would physically hurt him is sick." Does this clear things up for you, loinburger?

	07-08-2002 04:39									#115
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oedin, the threat of torture has been canceled from the consciousness of humanity as a "leagl" or "justified" retribution. (even retribution per se has been disqualified since it is revenge). I think the DP will follow that road. the US is sharing the DP with countries like Iraq and Saudi Arabia after all.

	07-08-2002 04:40									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I think what Che is trying to say is that revenge is no basis for a legal/penal system.

I think that Che says a lot of things. Does Che even believe in a legal system, or is he too far into his Communist dream land to even concede that people need laws to live with each other?

	07-08-2002 04:42									#117
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nationalist you're very funny.

go and see if they let you torture the man who did that.

that's the laws you want.

	07-08-2002 04:43									#118
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Che is a realist. Why are the likes of you so quick to resort to insult and saying that those who don't agree with your worldview life in a 'dreamworld'. Construct some rational arguments, because he has a valid point!

	07-08-2002 04:44									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison To an extent, but reform also makes a large part of this system also. I do not agree that the bloodlust of bereaved relatives should be heeded, despite how much sympathy they deserve.

Reform is just and can work for thieves and vandals. Murderers and rapists, on the otherhand, do not deserve a second chance. THey have demonstrated that they cannot live within the constraints of human society; therefore they should be removed. Rapists deserve life in prison. Murderers (especially people who murder children!) deserve death. No second chances for murderes. After all, does their victim have a second chance?

	07-08-2002 04:44									#120
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 it is if thats what it mean: life in prison = life in prison

Even then it wouldnt be nearly as big of a deterant. LIfe in US prisons is fairly cushy. If I were homeless or wa having problems adequately feeding myself, the US prison system would be a step up in quality of life. Unless this is changed drastically, with murderers doing forced labor and other uncomfortable things more often (not just for punishment, but also to help pay their cost of being in prison, which is like $45,000 a year, per prison inmate IIRC. That includes security wages and such), and this being advertised to get the message out to the public that prison really sucks, especially if you have to spend the rest of your life in it w/o perole, then that might be a suitable deterrant for me to replace the DP. But Im sure some of those serving life might rather want to die after a couple decades of hard manuel labor...heh. If that ever happens - which it probably wont because people who are upset about the death penalty will be the ones who will be crying about how its too cruel. ITS FRIGGIN PRISON edit: for murderers! ITS SUPPOSED TO BE CRUEL. ITS WHERE CRUEL PEOPLE GO. Oh well...

Kman