23-08-2002 20:13									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I'm just sitting here smiling that Caligastia's revised side booted another Aussie out.

It was not intentional, I promise...

quote: Be interesting to see how the autumn internationals affect this dream team. I'll be watching the Bok fullback closely - and comparing the Bok openside to Backy and McCaw to our Hilly too.

I cant wait, it seems like forever till November!!!

quote: Caligastia might like to look carefully at our full back - we have never had such a dynamic attacking player in that position as young Mr Robinson.

I actually had Robinson in there before I posted, as I am very impressed with him, but decided on Brent Russell at the last minute for the sake of diversity. I already had plenty of english players you see... If it makes you feel better, I could go either way between Russell and Robinson.

	24-08-2002 07:58									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You call 2 years a long while?? I would say Oz have had the Bledisloe Cup for a long while, but not the Tri-nations.

Just for the record -

Tri-Nations

96 - ABs
97 - ABs
98 - Boks
99 - ABs
00 - Wallabies
01 - Wallabies
02 - ABs

Bledisloe

Since the comp started in 1931, I think the ABs have won something like 64 matches, the Wallabies something like 30, with the vast majority of the Wallaby wins coming in the last 10 years.

The Wallabies won their first Bledisloe Cup in 1934, their second in 1949. They won the Cup only twice in the 1980s. Since 1992, they've won it 7 out of 10 times.

Which only goes to prove that Australian rugby has improved a hell of a lot. And it had to.

	24-08-2002 09:09									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Our top players are exceeding 40 first class games every season. It’s way too much rugby and it takes massive toll on the bodies.

40 first-class games in a season is ridiculous. BTW, what are you calling a first-class game? Do you include the Zurich Cup? (Or whatever the domestic comp is called?)

Edit. I picked up this morning's paper after I'd posted this. How appropriate that I should find a rugby article in which it's mentioned that there's an agreement between the ARU and the Rugby Players' Association that no player will play more than 30 matches a season. That includes club comp matches. It's still a lot of matches but a lot more sensible than 40. Is there any such agreement in place in England? If not, there should be.

quote: Well for a start he should still be playing when Larkham is retired so that certainly surpasses him right?

*Havak dons his semanticist's hat*

quote: He is one of a new mould of fly half for us – not the old type who kicked the pill to the corners all the time.

Which is why your rugby has improved. There are now more options.

Anyway, I still think we're comparing two quite different players and, it seems to me, it's pointless. They will both go down as great players. Larkham's basically a bit of a freak with a package of skills all his own. The only player I've seen who remotely resembles him is Mark Ella.

quote: Is Jones still alive and does he still believe he was right despite evidence to the contrary? If so he and Jack Rowell should get on like a house on fire.

Sad to say, Alan Jones still lives and breathes. He's now a top-rating, rabidly right-wing radio announcer. Yes, he still believes he was right, because he points to his coaching record. One of the man's biggest failings - amongst the myriad - is that he's never wrong. Stuff ups and problems are always someone else's fault. (Including, presumably, the minor problem of the charge of soliciting in a gent's public toilet in London, a charge that was, later, mysteriously, dropped)

quote: Okay okay – just watch the guy in the autumn and give me your assessment. I’ll accept you verdict after you have done so. Even is you don’t rate him I’ll accept…that there’s no hope for you. I still don’t know why you have such trouble with this – the guy is one of the very best ever pure and simple, and the latest in a long long line of super English locks. They have always been our strength, and even when the team is fairly poor we have generally had solid locks.

Obviously he's a great player. His only problem as far as I'm concerned is - as you should, by now, be well aware - that he's your favourite player.

OTOH, and this will be my single, sole response to your bait - your claim that he's superior to J.E. is woolly in the extreme. When your lad can kick goals; when he has skippered his team to a WRC win; when he has been the only class player in an average side and has constantly risen to the occasion; and, most important of all, when he doesn't have a major question mark alongside his temperament, then I'll entertain a discussion on the matter.

quote: I’m very pleased to hear this actually. He was out of order. Can we expect Gregan to be similarly cited for his overt criticism of the citing officials and committee. Exactly the same deal to my mind – he should have kept his mouth firmly closed?

Vastly different cases, I'd've thought. Mehrtens, effectively, publicly villified the ref. Gregan didn't villify anyone. He called for uniformity in judicial matters. No different to a skipper, for example, calling for an examination of a particular rule, which happens all the time. If George had said something to the effect that the tribunal "should have been ashamed of its performance" (basically Mehrtens' words about the ref), it would have been different.

quote: Oh very nice try.

Thanks! I was pretty chuffed with it too.

quote: I mentioned the France you played in the final bore no resemblance to the one that beat the All Blacks. I said I hope that if you win next year you will have to face England or the All Blacks – what could be the number one and two ranked teams at that time – to gain a sense of achievement.

My point was - what happens if we beat both England and the All Blacks (which might not be possible, I haven't looked at the draw) and neither England nor the All Blacks happen to be at their best on the day? What I'm saying is, IMHO, the whole "hollow victory" thing is a bit sus. You can only beat whomever lines up against you in whatever shape they're in.

What happens if Gregan and Larkham break their legs in the first round? Or Wilkinson and Jonno? Or Mehrtens and Jack? Is whomever beats the afflicted side gaining a hollow victory?

And, as I've said before - I think it was in regard to the pointlessness of rankings - whomever wins the WRC is the World Champion team on that particular day. The next day is the next day. Sorry to blather on about it, but I think way too much importance is placed on such intangible things. Which isn't to say, obviously, that a WRC isn't bliss-out time for me.

quote: Probably true, however “quick, very strong, a line-breaker, and a great tackler” describes Healey perfectly. The fact he generally breaks the line by avoiding the tackle rather than breaking it might be the difference? So really I need to see them on the same field to judge?

Mortlock breaks the line when he needs to - which is to say, when he's not powering through a hole. (Which is your cue to reply that A. Healey creates gaps, and I reply that S. Mortlock invented rugby, and you reply that A. Healy invented quantum physics ... ad infinitum ... )

quote: Okay, right, out goes Larkham and in comes Wilko – that sorts the kicking properly (I believe he is better than Merhtens in terms of success ratio)?

Why am I not surprised? Why are you not surprised that I would suggest S. Mortlock for A. Healey solved your goal kicking problem in the first place and, most importantly, without breaking up the precious half-back/5-8 combination?

quote: I don't know the Bok fullback - thats isn't the lad who played there against Australia is it?

No, Russell came on as a winger in their first match against us, replaced Pretorius at 5/8 in the starting line-up for the second match. Runs like a gazelle when he gets the ball in hand. Lacks the experience to know actually what he's going to do next.

	24-08-2002 09:18									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Legend to retire

Gee, he'd better hurry up and learn to kick goals, skipper a WRC-winning team, and erase that massive question mark alongside his temperament.

quote: the boys are crocked

I didn't realise Rod Kafer was with your lot! Or maybe I did, and I've forgotten. Talk about a one-man engine room. How has he performed?

	24-08-2002 20:18									#365
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Ah Finbar I like your sense of humour.

I will reply to your posts properly when I get more time over the next few days of our bank holiday here

I like Kafer - good solid player who fearlessly puts his body on the line in the grand Tigers tradition. But as a whole he is not yet winning our crowd - Pat Howard was a hard act to follow in that respect. In fact I suspect Pat fitted in better here than he ever has or will at brumbies?

Okay the reason I left Mrs Havak shopping to sneak in a post is to let you know the first Orange cup was won by - Tigers!!!

14-13, the narrowest of victories, and the fench ref stopped our hearts by wrongly (IMO) gving Bernat-Salles a penalty in the last second after he dived on top of Tuilagi and stopped him releasing the ball - the ref (French) gave Biarritz the penalty (B-S went sraight off his feet)!!! But the lad taking it missed badly and another trophy is heading for our cabinet.

Seriously it was not a classic game, with a scratch back line including some of our academy (U18) lads. But the match fitness looks good and any win in France against the French champions is a good win. And two tries to one was nice to see.

Kafer btw is one of the injured. I actually hardly recognised our starting back line becuase of all the injury problems to the first team - but we may have found a star - Sam Vesty, a young lad who looked good at Fly Half and made the winning try. You should be pleased at that as Healey wants to play Fly this season and I think the lad will displace him back onto the wing.

Catch you soon.

	25-08-2002 06:19									#366
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As I said after the Springbok / Wallaby game - Gregan had been passing the ball at every touch. I've read in the paper today Jones is directing him to be more greedy with the ball and run with it like he used to so well.

When he starts doing that again he'll remind us why he is the best halfback in the game at present.

BTW - Interesting teams fellas, a bit skinny of Aussie representation though. if you want a laugh check out this Planet-Rugby 2002 Tri Nations XV (utterly AB dominated and only 2 Wallabies):

15 Werner Greeff, 14 Ben Tune, 13 Marius Joubert, 12 Aaron Mauger, 11 Doug Howlett, 10 Andrew Mehrtens, 9 Justin Marshall (captain), 8 Scott Robertson, 7 Richard McCaw, 6 Joe van Niekerk, 5 Chris Jack, 4 Jannes Labuschagne, 3 Greg Somerville, 2 Jeremy Paul, 1 Dave Hewett.

	25-08-2002 07:29									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Ah Finbar I like your sense of humour.

quote: I like Kafer - good solid player who fearlessly puts his body on the line in the grand Tigers tradition. But as a whole he is not yet winning our crowd - Pat Howard was a hard act to follow in that respect. In fact I suspect Pat fitted in better here than he ever has or will at brumbies?

I don't know what it takes to win your crowd. I'd like some amplification on that point. But it's interesting that - from my observation anyway - Pat Howard seemed to struggle a bit with the Brumbies this year. I'm not sure why. He seemed to have less time to do things, he was less creative than he used to be. He appeared to be playing the role of the crash-through centre a lot of the time, which is a waste of his talents. I suppose the Brumbie play-making machine adapted in his absence and he's not playing the role he once did. Pity. I hope they find more use for his talents next season.

quote: Okay the reason I left Mrs Havak shopping to sneak in a post is to let you know the first Orange cup was won by - Tigers!!!

Frankly, Havak, I simply refuse to go shopping with Mrs finbar in the first place.

Congrats on the win. Did Jonno put his hand up to kick for goal? I'll check out the game on the net. I have a bad feeling about NH rugby's chances of cracking it on FoxSports in the coming months. One of the FoxSports channels is obviously going to be dedicated to English Premier League Soccer and the other one is currently showing the England-v-India Test series. I would imagine they will next show the Australian XI touring wherever they're going pretty soon. So nothing till November, I expect.

Edit. I just found the article on the Planet Rugby website about restricting the number of non-English players in the Zurich comp. Seems like a good idea to me. While English cricket has a whole lot of other problems that rugby doesn't have, the number of foreign pros playing county cricket hasn't helped the cause. Developing home-grown talent would always have to be a priority, I'd've thought.

	25-08-2002 07:42									#368
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar As I said after the Springbok / Wallaby game - Gregan had been passing the ball at every touch. I've read in the paper today Jones is directing him to be more greedy with the ball and run with it like he used to so well.

And as I said once before, there was a time when George was accused of running with it (and kicking it) too much.

quote: When he starts doing that again he'll remind us why he is the best halfback in the game at present.

He remains the best #9, to my mind. His only competition (that I've seen this season) can't get a start in the AB team.

quote: 15 Werner Greeff, 14 Ben Tune, 13 Marius Joubert, 12 Aaron Mauger, 11 Doug Howlett, 10 Andrew Mehrtens, 9 Justin Marshall (captain), 8 Scott Robertson, 7 Richard McCaw, 6 Joe van Niekerk, 5 Chris Jack, 4 Jannes Labuschagne, 3 Greg Somerville, 2 Jeremy Paul, 1 Dave Hewett.

Ridiculous. For starters, the Wallaby pack did more than enough against both the ABs and the Boks to warrant more representation. For what it's worth, I'd go this way, based on performance:

15 Greeff (or Latham, a split decision); 14 Tune; 13 Mortlock; 12 Mauger; 11 Howlett; 10 Larkham; 9 Gregan; 8 Robertson (or Kefu, a split decision); 7 McCaw; 6 Smith; 5 Jack; 4 Sharpe; 3 Somerville; 2 Paul; 1 Young.

	25-08-2002 08:12									#369
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quote: Originally posted by finbar And as I said once before, there was a time when George was accused of running with it (and kicking it) too much.

Is it not human nature to want what we're not getting? I always liked his running (not kicking) better than his passing. Of course his tackling beats them both.

quote: 15 Greeff (or Latham, a split decision); 14 Tune; 13 Mortlock; 12 Mauger; 11 Howlett; 10 Larkham; 9 Gregan; 8 Robertson (or Kefu, a split decision); 7 McCaw; 6 Smith; 5 Jack; 4 Sharpe; 3 Somerville; 2 Paul; 1 Young.

That looks more sound but how do you put Larkham past Mehrtens based on current form? Our little maestro hasn't been in his best form lately - not since his injury at the Super12 final I'd argue.

BTW - Will the Argentina & Europe tour be exclusively on Foxtel again? If so I'll have to get it a month earlier than planned, I can't miss another one

	25-08-2002 08:51									#370
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar Is it not human nature to want what we're not getting?

Careful, NeoStar, you could be a candidate for a yellow card for profundity. I realise you're still relatively new in this thread, so you should be aware that we deal only in the trite, shallow and meaningless.

quote: That looks more sound but how do you put Larkham past Mehrtens based on current form? Our little maestro hasn't been in his best form lately - not since his injury at the Super12 final I'd argue.

1. Larkham's form isn't that bad. He was smashed in the opening minutes of the last match, which quietened him. Prior to that, he had a couple of fine matches, including the second ABs game where he outplayed Mehrtens.

2. Mehtrens, because his defence is hugely suspect, spends time hidden at full back. Larkham - at great physical cost to himself - is a fierce defender, staying in the line, backing up, supporting the attack. Mehrtens is a good strategist and a brilliant tactical kicker, but I think Larkham will always have a much more rounded game than him.

3. You need a very damn good reason to split up a proven halves combination. I didn't find anything approaching even a half-baked reason. On top of which, as I said, the ABs won't give their best scrum-half a start.

quote: BTW - Will the Argentina & Europe tour be exclusively on Foxtel again? If so I'll have to get it a month earlier than planned, I can't miss another one

I'm not sure who will cover the NH tour. I'll look into it for you.

Edit. This season anyway, Foxtel and 7 shared the rights to show Wallaby and S12 matches played in Australia but only 7 had the rights to matches played outside the country. If that situation continues with the NH tour, Foxtel probably won't be showing the matches, meaning we will be stuck with the vagaries and indulgences of 7. I sincerely hope that won't be the case.

	26-08-2002 18:38									#371
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The Wallabies won their first Bledisloe Cup in 1934, their second in 1949. They won the Cup only twice in the 1980s. Since 1992, they've won it 7 out of 10 times. Which only goes to prove that Australian rugby has improved a hell of a lot. And it had to.

Yep, but I would still say NZ have had the best overall results over the last 10 years. Australia have greatly improved. but we are still #1.

quote: Originally posted by finbar I'll check out the game on the net

You can watch games on the net? Where?

	26-08-2002 18:52									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yep, but I would still say NZ have had the best overall results over the last 10 years. Australia have greatly improved. but we are still #1.

I'll check out the total results - Tri-Nations and Bledisloe. It will be interesting to see. The Wallabies have won 7 Bledisloes since 1992 (that's 7 out of 11) and 2 Tri-Nations since its inception. I think at least one of our Bledisloes was a one-off Test, so the AB Tri-Nations wins might squeak you over the line.

I'll do some adding up in the morning.

quote: You can watch games on the net? Where?

How I wish. No, I just meant check out the reports of the matches. They're all over the place.

	26-08-2002 19:39									#373
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'll check out the total results - Tri-Nations and Bledisloe. It will be interesting to see. The Wallabies have won 7 Bledisloes since 1992 (that's 7 out of 11) and 2 Tri-Nations since its inception. I think at least one of our Bledisloes was a one-off Test, so the AB Tri-Nations wins might squeak you over the line. I'll do some adding up in the morning.

Where would you look up the results online? I havent been able to find a site with a decent amount of rugby results.

quote: How I wish. No, I just meant check out the reports of the matches. They're all over the place.

Wouldnt that be fantastic if you could subscribe to a site that had downloadable versions of all games? Talk about heaven.

	26-08-2002 22:45									#374
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quote: He appeared to be playing the role of the crash-through centre a lot of the time, which is a waste of his talents

Agreed! He did not play that role at tigers.

quote: Did Jonno put his hand up to kick for goal?

Not this time. He did look nice and hungry though.

quote: restricting the number of non-English players in the Zurich comp. Seems like a good idea to me.

It is a good idea – but it is to be a gentleman’s agreement policed by the clubs themselves. Some clubs have taken the proverbial though – Gloucester became almost Franch at one point and Saracens just bought mainly over the hill SH talent (and look where it got them – Pienaar was a disaster).

I can’t comment on the Kiwi-Aussie argument now occurring, but I will take up the gauntlet of explaining to you why Healey needs to be your winger when I return to work Wednesday.

	27-08-2002 01:01									#375
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'll check out the total results - Tri-Nations and Bledisloe. It will be interesting to see. The Wallabies have won 7 Bledisloes since 1992 (that's 7 out of 11) and 2 Tri-Nations since its inception. I think at least one of our Bledisloes was a one-off Test, so the AB Tri-Nations wins might squeak you over the line.

I was thinking more along the lines of most victories - not necessarily against each other.

	27-08-2002 04:33									#376
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Where would you look up the results online? I havent been able to find a site with a decent amount of rugby results.

This is Planet Rugby's international coverage but there are better. I'll have a look.

Edit. Here's the RFU's results page which will, no doubt, once their season starts, list every result imaginable!

quote: Wouldnt that be fantastic if you could subscribe to a site that had downloadable versions of all games? Talk about heaven.

Not with the download limits on my cable connection.

	27-08-2002 04:37									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I will take up the gauntlet of explaining to you why Healey needs to be your winger when I return to work Wednesday.

If you need that long to come up with a half-decent reason, that's fine.

	27-08-2002 04:42									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I was thinking more along the lines of most victories - not necessarily against each other.

I'd've thought head-to-head would be the pudding in which the proof might be found. To mangle a metaphor. There's also the problem of all those soft AB wins against the Pacific Island nations, matches we don't get to play.

	27-08-2002 18:02									#379
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quote: Originally posted by finbar I'd've thought head-to-head would be the pudding in which the proof might be found. To mangle a metaphor. There's also the problem of all those soft AB wins against the Pacific Island nations, matches we don't get to play.

Maybe we could just include games against the top 5 teams - New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, England and France.

	27-08-2002 18:30									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Maybe we could just include games against the top 5 teams - New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, England and France.

Fair enough. Unless I can find some matches we've played against Easter Island or somewhere.

What do you think Havak's got up to on his Bank Holiday weekend? Painting the kitchen for Mrs Havak? Cleaning out the guttering for Mrs Havak? A shopping orgy with Mrs Havak? Giving Mrs Havak's Vauxhall a grease and oil change? Or down the boozer?

	27-08-2002 20:03									#381
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quote: Originally posted by finbar What do you think Havak's got up to on his Bank Holiday weekend? Painting the kitchen for Mrs Havak? Cleaning out the guttering for Mrs Havak? A shopping orgy with Mrs Havak? Giving Mrs Havak's Vauxhall a grease and oil change? Or down the boozer?

All of the above?

As Im sure youre well aware, Ive found the best policy when the wife asks to go shopping is to give a firm "no" from the start. Ive seen friends who thought it couldnt hurt to give in every now and then become guilt slaves wandering in a stupor through the shoe department.

Ill help out when it comes to food shopping, but when it comes to clothes shopping or going to broadway shows...its a firm no.

	27-08-2002 21:39									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Ill help out when it comes to food shopping, but when it comes to clothes shopping or going to broadway shows...its a firm no.

Even food shopping can be dangerous, a firm no is ALWAYS required (and we can play Civ games while she is out).

	27-08-2002 21:41									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Even food shopping can be dangerous, a firm no is ALWAYS required (and we can play Civ games while she is out).

I only go food shopping when I run out of beer (I like choosing at the supermarket, they have a good selection), or if it would be too much for her to carry on her own.

	28-08-2002 02:49									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I only go food shopping when I run out of beer (I like choosing at the supermarket, they have a good selection), or if it would be too much for her to carry on her own.

It seems to be a valid exception to the rule, moreover we cannot trust a woman as far as beer is concerned.

	28-08-2002 04:43									#385
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I do all the food shopping because I work from home and do all the cooking anyway. In fact, I insist on doing all the food shopping. I find it very therapeutic.

	28-08-2002 04:44									#386
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You know, I thought about getting into rugby, but the US team's recent loss to Chile sort of took the wind out of my sails. (Although a tie would go to the Eagles).

That, and I can't find it on television for the life of me.
I'm sure there is someplace that broadcasts it locally, but I'll have to pick a decent team to cheer for--I already back too many underdogs.
So suggest a massive juggernaut and I'll quietly cheer them on.
Failure to do so will result in me choosing Uruguay as my champion and moaning about their lousy performance every hour on the hour.

	28-08-2002 04:58									#387
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak That, and I can't find it on television for the life of me.

Caligastia doesn't seem to have any trouble watching rugby on TV. I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you how.

quote: choosing Uruguay as my champion and moaning about their lousy performance every hour on the hour.

With Mrs Sneak moaning about your lousy performance every hour on the hour, there'll be an awful lot of moaning going on.

	28-08-2002 05:04									#388
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When was the last time anyone moaned at your house, pops?

	28-08-2002 05:12									#389
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quote: Originally posted by SuperSneak That, and I can't find it on television for the life of me.

Its not on basic cable here, I have to pay for a sports package to get Fox Sports World which is the main channel for rugby. It may be easier to get for you as it is based on the west coast.

quote: I'm sure there is someplace that broadcasts it locally, but I'll have to pick a decent team to cheer for--I already back too many underdogs.

You could always be an All Blacks supporter. They are New Zealand's national rugby team, and arguably the best in the world. NZ has a proud rugby tradition that spans over 100 years. The english invented the game - we taught them how to play it. Nobody can deny that NZ have historically dominated rugby, but lately the aussies have been catching up. You can cheer for NZ in the Rugby World Cup next year.

	28-08-2002 05:25									#390
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Is the US team (Eagles) in the same group or what? Is this like the World Cup with regional qualifiers?