20-08-2002 23:14									#331
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I'm not sure what NPC games will be televised on Sky here in the UK. It will probably be just one selected game very early on a Saturday morning. I imagine therefore it would be a struggle for most to get out of bed for it, especially those with bitter hangovers to contend with.

I'll miss the first three anyway as I'm off tomorrow to Spain for three weeks. HA HA!

Has there been any discussion about the vote of no confidence in the current NZRFU board by the 27 provincial unions? I've been too busy to catch up on these threads lately. It was the best news I've heard in ages. As I've said before, it's about time some new blood stepped in to take the reins - relationships need to be mended to get the game back on track.

	21-08-2002 04:32									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Making it a trophy that takes some winning. It now makes sense to me how important it is to both nations.

Prior to the Tri-Nations, the Bledisloe was usually played as a 3-Test series. I do recall one year when there was a one-off Test. A lot of Kiwis and Australians rate the Bledisloe more important than the Tri-Nations for obvious reasons.

quote: I would have liked to have read some of that to see how it compares to the output of our rabid hacks.

Basically they criticised the Wallaby performance. But, as I pointed out once before, we don't have the crap tabloids you have, so the quality of the writing is higher. So the Wallabies weren't slaughtered in tabloid fashion. The faults and problems were identified. Not that they were hard to spot.

quote: The forwards were sadly lacking in both big games. Eddie knew that, and work continues apace. We will see how far you have come on that one when you step into the white meat grinder.

Yes, Eddie isn't afraid to recall the forwards' performance and it has preoccupied him this year. Nathan Sharpe is going to miss the tour unfortunately. He's having a shoulder op.

quote: Keep in mind I’m pure front row material okay

But you can use the word "fulsome" properly. I think that qualifies you for honorary membership of the "Backs Club".

quote: Thanks for checking up on the laws. I knew I was on fairly solid ground on the punch front from listening to various refs in the club house last year (if you recall a favourite player of mine was red carded and later banned for a reaction punch when an opposing player jumped on his back)

The bottom line to it all is that the refs are not applying the laws applying to punching. There is also a law - which, again, I skipped in order to avoid posting the lot - that says a player cannnot retaliate, that retaliation is treated exactly the same way as any other breach.

quote: I couldn’t agree more that they need re-drafting in plain language.

I might submit my CV to them.

	21-08-2002 13:55									#333
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quote: A lot of Kiwis and Australians rate the Bledisloe more important than the Tri-Nations for obvious reasons.

My punt at that would be the Kiwis are upset that they have lost hold of it given their rugger heritage, and the Aussies love to hold onto it for the same reason? ;-)

quote: so the quality of the writing is higher

I know you have asserted this before, and I’m not well placed to argue it, but I will say to you that I have still never read such a load of biased overtly racist bilge as some of the stuff I saw in your Sports pages last year whilst down there – step forward the Sydney herald. I’m sorry but some of that stuff made our tabloids look good. Some of my tour party were quite concerned at how angry some of the press stuff made me – and persuaded me to stop reading it.

quote: Not that they were hard to spot.

It was the pack. What could be simpler than that?

quote: Nathan Sharpe is going to miss the tour unfortunately. He's having a shoulder op.

I understand you have walking wounded too? Harrison needs an ankle Op but is delaying it for after the tour? Someone else is touring who needs surgery I think though the name has slipped my mind. On the plus side Giffen and Waugh are expected to make it. If Waugh is fully fit he may play as first choice – his more physical style will be better suited to opposing Hill and Back than Smithy is I think? Especially as the senior England players have just had their first totally free summer for five years after they were allowed not to tour – I’ve read Hill’s comments on how he is raring to go for the new season (and what is more he plays for Saracens if you decide to back them).

quote: But you can use the word "fulsome" properly. I think that qualifies you for honorary membership of the "Backs Club".

There are few things worse you can say to a forward than to call him a ‘girly’ like that – but I’m sure you were unaware of that, it’s just a Pommy hangup right?

And you have no idea how paranoid I now am about using the word ‘fulsome’ again.

quote: that retaliation is treated exactly the same way as any other breach.

And that is totally correct, even though it costs my club dearly (they have a ‘one in trouble, all in’ spirit).

Refs are bottling red cards full stop. Which made it all the more bizarre Paddy the Kiwi yellowed a punch then invoked the team warning to send of the high tackler?

By the way the only side in the Tri-nations not to concede a penalty for high tackling was the All Blacks. I expect Caligastia is very proud?

quote: I might submit my CV to them.

Go for it – you are certainly qualified.

Just over a week to the kick off of the English and French seasons. And I’ve managed to fill the close season almost entirely by catching international rugby at the weekends. Year round rugby – marvellous stuff.

I guess we have to face that the thread will probably fade until November – after all all the Aussies seem to offer until the tour is the Tooheys New cup?

Should that happen we have to rely on Caligastia to resurrect it in time right?

	21-08-2002 16:01									#334
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quote: Originally posted by Havak And that is totally correct, even though it costs my club dearly (they have a ‘one in trouble, all in’ spirit).

Remember Franck Tournaire is also an expert in retaliation, good recruit ! ;D

Fortunately he is an excellent prop (when he wants to).

I now know why the Leicester vs. Stade Toulousain match has been cancelled, the Orange Cup against Biarritz has been scheduled the day the Stade Toulousain should have played against the Tigers.

	21-08-2002 16:44									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Havak My punt at that would be the Kiwis are upset that they have lost hold of it given their rugger heritage, and the Aussies love to hold onto it for the same reason? ;-)

A bit of that. A bit of the traditional needing to beat your nearest neighbour and (in many ways) ally.

quote: I know you have asserted this before, and I’m not well placed to argue it, but I will say to you that I have still never read such a load of biased overtly racist bilge as some of the stuff I saw in your Sports pages last year whilst down there – step forward the Sydney herald. I’m sorry but some of that stuff made our tabloids look good. Some of my tour party were quite concerned at how angry some of the press stuff made me – and persuaded me to stop reading it.

On first reading, your para baffled me. I'm very familiar with all the SMH rugby writers. None of them usually deal in that sort of thing - Then it hit me! You were probably reading the immensely unlikeable and untalented Peter Fitzsimons, former Wallaby second-rower and champion self-aggrandiser whose only aim is to use the word "I" as often as possible while being utterly offensive to both whomever he's writing about and the craft of writing. How the man has parlayed such a lack of talent into job at the SMH is beyond me. And a lot of people.

I hope you can remember who the writer was. You probably can't. But I would bet it's Fitzsimons.

quote: I understand you have walking wounded too? Harrison needs an ankle Op but is delaying it for after the tour? Someone else is touring who needs surgery I think though the name has slipped my mind.

Yes, there are a couple of walking wounded. I'm not sure whether Harrison - or indeed any of the injured - will go. It's still not clear what approach will be taken to the tour - how much of it will be sorting and re-sorting for the WRC, much as the French did when they came here.

quote: On the plus side Giffen and Waugh are expected to make it. If Waugh is fully fit he may play as first choice – his more physical style will be better suited to opposing Hill and Back than Smithy is I think?

The best news of all is that David Giffen made his comeback to club rugby last weekend. It also appears he will be staying with the Brumbies after toying with leaving. Waugh will also be fully fit which will help too. Yes, he and George will compete for the same spot. And George has been bulking up for precisely the reason you mention. I suspect we can also look forward to seeing a lot more of David Lyons playing on the tour. He's a readymade replacement for Owen F and needs time against strong oppo to help his game.

Methinks, as well, that there could be a couple of surprise selections for the tour - some smaller, very quick, very good runners of angles (a la Rogers). I think the Bok mosquito fleet had more of an impact on Eddie et al than they're admitting.

quote: There are few things worse you can say to a forward than to call him a ‘girly’ like that – but I’m sure you were unaware of that, it’s just a Pommy hangup right?

:guffaw:

quote: And you have no idea how paranoid I now am about using the word ‘fulsome’ again.

Just think how many of your friends you'll impress on the terraces when you use it correctly, though. And when you distinguish between "less" and "fewer".

quote: Refs are bottling red cards full stop. Which made it all the more bizarre Paddy the Kiwi yellowed a punch then invoked the team warning to send of the high tackler?

And only gave Nathan Sharpe a very mild rebuke. It's crazy.

quote: By the way the only side in the Tri-nations not to concede a penalty for high tackling was the All Blacks. I expect Caligastia is very proud?

Well, leaving aside their locks, who are too lazy to reach down to tackle around the shoulders, no one else in the team's over 5' 5", how are they going to reach up?

quote: I guess we have to face that the thread will probably fade until November – after all all the Aussies seem to offer until the tour is the Tooheys New cup? Should that happen we have to rely on Caligastia to resurrect it in time right?

I'm not going anywhere. This is my year to find out a lot more about the specifics of NH rugby. It'll be hard not being able to see much of it, but I'll keep up. And, as we've proved before, when every other bugger disappeared to visit their in-laws in Boise, Idaho, or went on hols to Carcasonne, or whatever, we managed to keep the damn ship afloat!

	21-08-2002 17:27									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Havak By the way the only side in the Tri-nations not to concede a penalty for high tackling was the All Blacks. I expect Caligastia is very proud?

Sure, but Im more proud of the fact that we were only 2 points shy of winning all the tri-nations games, and that we won the tri-nations.

Did you know that this is the 4th time the All Blacks have won the tri-nations? 4 out of 7 aint bad! NZ also has provided the winning team for 6 out of 7 super12 competitions.

Did I mention that we were unbeaten in 96 & 97?

quote: Should that happen we have to rely on Caligastia to resurrect it in time right?

Yeah, I will stop it from sinking too far. I will probably make some comments here and there on NPC games, even though they may fall on deaf ears...

	21-08-2002 17:48									#337
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quote: Remember Franck Tournaire is also an expert in retaliation, good recruit ! ;D Fortunately he is an excellent prop (when he wants to).

Thanks Tamerlin – he should fit right in on both counts. By all accounts Jonno (sorry Finbar!) has been very impressed with Tournaire in training and the warm up game against Agen.

Yes it appears both our Unions were plotting the Orange cup and ordered Toulouse and Tigers to cancel the fixture without announcing why – simply because the deal was not yet signed at that time.

I fully expect us to lose this fixture – I’m not sure how seriously the boys are taking it and France is not a place to be relaxed about any game you play.

quote: I hope you can remember who the writer was. You probably can't. But I would bet it's Fitzsimons.

A rugby nut engaged on a three week permanently boozed up tour and you expect me to remember the name of journos? I can’t remember the name of half my tour party!

Seriously I didn’t register it – I was so disgusted with the stuff I glanced through I didn’t take time to find out who had written it. I’ll see if I can find any of his stuff to check the style. As a writer one of the first things you check is the author I guess? To me I just labelled it as “a ranting Aussie journo”.

quote: It's still not clear what approach will be taken to the tour

If neither Sharpe nor Harrison travel you are dangerously light in the lock department. You really cannot afford that against us. Giffen is class but he is new back from injury as you say and the ask on him would be immense if he is the only seasoned first choice lock? I bet Justin travels (after all he is big mates with Kafer and it’s a free ticket to England to meet him?).

Jones may treat the tour as developmental but I suspect he will only do so in the non-England clashes?

I thought I had read somewhere Giffen only needed to put pen to paper to be a Reds player? So he decided to stick with ACT did he? I wonder if he is looking further forward to his sterling pension?

I’m also looking forward to getting a proper look at Lyons hopefully – without Poido wibbling on in the background.

quote: I think the Bok mosquito fleet had more of an impact on Eddie et al than they're admitting.

Which has to make me smile as we are still slavishly aiming to build a team of “big, strong backs” in the aussie mould.

Jason Robinson is the exception – quick, clever and elusive he still hits the tackle harder pound for pound than any player I have seen in recent years. Sadly he did indeed come from the ‘red card’ code of course.

quote: when you distinguish between "less" and "fewer".

There’s a difference?

quote: And only gave Nathan Sharpe a very mild rebuke. It's crazy.

It was very strange. To re-iterate I back your call for consistency completely.

quote: leaving aside their locks, who are too lazy to reach down to tackle around the shoulders, no one else in the team's over 5' 5", how are they going to reach up?

Where is Caligastia when you need him? I thought I had set you up to say that they were never on their feet but that was even better.

quote: we managed to keep the damn ship afloat!

We sure did, but I’ll tell you what bothers me. As our season gets underway what do I have to mention but Tigers all the time? I fear for your sanity!

	21-08-2002 17:51									#338
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Sorry Caligastia I missed your post whilst writing my last one.

So 5'5" then? What does he mean?

I actually was aware of the stats you quoted - it was essential information for touring Aus last year.

Did you know that in both your unbeaten seasons Australia finished bottom (thats right - more essential tour information)

By the way Micthell is apparently thinking of resting Merhtens, Marshall, Roberston and McCaw - I do hope that isn't true!?

	21-08-2002 18:01									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Sorry Caligastia I missed your post whilst writing my last one. So 5'5" then? What does he mean?

No idea, perhaps Finbar needs glasses...

quote: I actually was aware of the stats you quoted - it was essential information for touring Aus last year.

quote: Did you know that in both your unbeaten seasons Australia finished bottom (thats right - more essential tour information)

I had forgotten about that, probably because at the time Australia were not considered a threat, so having them finish bottom was nothing exciting or unusual. Thanks for reminding me though!

quote: By the way Micthell is apparently thinking of resting Merhtens, Marshall, Roberston and McCaw - I do hope that isn't true!?

I havent heard that, but I did read an article saying that he was more interested in building for the RWC than winning the european tour matches. We do have some decent replacements for those players (and in Marshall's case, a superior replacement), so Mitchell is probably planning to give them some more big-match experience. Where did you read this BTW?

	21-08-2002 18:28									#340
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Read it on the BBC Sport website which is generally a fairly reliable source.

I saw you and Finbar discussing the other scrummy but who is the alternative Fly Half? Robertson and McCaw seem to leave a substantial gap in your forwards too?

	22-08-2002 12:34									#341
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Five Wallabies in Tri XV =

Zurich Tri-Nations XV:
15 Werner Greeff (South Africa), 14 Breyton Paulse (South Africa), 13 Tana Umaga (New Zealand), 12 Aaron Mauger (New Zealand), 11 Stirling Mortlock (Australia), 10 Andrew Mehrtens (New Zealand), 9 Justin Marshall (New Zealand), 8 Scott Robertson (New Zealand), 6 Owen Finegan (Australia), 7 Joe Van Niekerk (South Africa), 5 Nathan Sharpe (Australia), 4 Simon Maling (New Zealand), 3 Greg Somerville (New Zealand), 2 Jeremy Paul (Australia), 1 Bill Young (Australia)



Four Australians have been named in Rugby World magazine’s Greatest World XV =

Rugby World's XV:
S Blanco (Fra), D Campese (Aus), M Gibson (Ire), J Mazo (Fra), J Lomu (NZ), M Ella (Aus), G Edwards (Wal), G Price (Wal), S Fitzpatrick (NZ), T Rodriguez (Arg), J Eales (Aus), C Meads (NZ), J-P Rives (Fra) (c), D Richards (Eng), K Tremain (NZ).

GO THE WALLABIES

	22-08-2002 13:12									#342
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quote: Four Australians have been named in Rugby World magazine?s Greatest World XV = Rugby World's XV: S Blanco (Fra), D Campese (Aus), M Gibson (Ire), J Mazo (Fra), J Lomu (NZ), M Ella (Aus), G Edwards (Wal), G Price (Wal), S Fitzpatrick (NZ), T Rodriguez (Arg), J Eales (Aus), C Meads (NZ), J-P Rives (Fra) (c), D Richards (Eng), K Tremain (NZ).

Four? Campo, Ella, Eales... Where is the fourth? Maybe you meant four Kiwis?
Although I think Lomu is overrated here. I'd rather see someone like I. Evans in his place. He was a damn good welsh winger. Pity he played when Wales were so bad (I remember a Lions team made of Evans for Wales, Hastings for Scotland, one tighthead prop I can't remember the name right now for Ireland, and 12 Englishmen...)

	22-08-2002 16:27									#343
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Four? Campo, Ella, Eales... Where is the fourth? Maybe you meant four Kiwis?

Prop Topo Rodriquez, who represented Argentina before playing for the Wallabies, is the 4th.

Not the kiwis, mate

	22-08-2002 17:56									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Read it on the BBC Sport website which is generally a fairly reliable source. I saw you and Finbar discussing the other scrummy but who is the alternative Fly Half?

Tony Brown would probably be the alternative.

quote: Robertson and McCaw seem to leave a substantial gap in your forwards too?

Errr...to be honest I dont know who their replacements would be. I imagine we will find out when Mitchell swaps players around for the european tour.

	22-08-2002 19:07									#345
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LDicesare named a true Welsh rugby legend there. Ieuan Evans - Captain Cymru. One hell of a player indeed. Broke English hearts one time with a sneaky last minute try at the old Cardiff arms. Sadly he finally retired last year.

The Lions have been dominated by Englishmen since the 89 tour (or Campo's finest hour for Neostars benefit - remembered for the greatest mistake that loud mouth ever made)

Well the tri-nations team is meaningless to me – only a current world XV would peak my interest. You would get some very interesting calls as the only scrummy I’ve seen that would push Gregan out this year is Galthie. Needless to say you would struggle to have either lock, only Jack getting into contention at all in the absence of Giffen. And you would have to work very hard to get me to pick any non-Englishmen in the front row at all (Ibanez maybe...).

That all time team is truly bizarre - clearly voted for and compiled by vested interests. Nice to see Richards get the recognition he deserves but just one Englishman is simply ludicrous - and having a recent Aussie forward in the mix shows the 'selectors' involved here are pretty clueless too.

Okay Gareth Edwards, no argument there - but where is JPR (the welsh one) then?

I think we'll certainly have a lock from England in there - and where is Willie John Mcbride???

Mark Ella? Not a shade on Larkham or Wilkinson surely? Finbar?

Eales is a hell of a nice guy and a well rounded player but anyone who picked him specifically at lock over his English opponent from last year really needs their head examining big time.

Oh and Rodriguez isn’t an Australian. Under current IRB regulations neither he nor Noriega could ever have pulled the jersey on. I have no time for border hoppers myself.

You sense the unbalanced hand of mainly SH voting in this all time team I think? A few welsh ex-pats in NSW skewing a few of their favourites in? But probably not enough even so – only some of the classic AB sides come anywhere near the Welsh sides of the seventies IMO. I would like to see a ‘currently playing’ World XV that isn’t limited to the Tri-nations - because, shock horror, all the best players don’t come from there

I know exactly who I would go for – and they come from a wide variety of countries – but certain French and English players definitely displace some of the tri-nations ones in that side – there are also Irish and Scots I would strongly consider and one Welshman if he is fully fit. How about one of you has a stab first though – and please don’t just write “the Wallabies” Neostar?

There is one question I’m itching to ask by the way Neostar, you do realise you lost the tri-nations don’t you???

	23-08-2002 03:49									#346
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Gee, I had a day away from the thread for work reasons. This cannot be allowed to happen again! I award myself a BLACK card!

I have to say, I find both those teams- Tri-Nations and World - quite bizarre. Who selected them? I mean to say, for crying out loud - Jonah Lomu??

quote: Mark Ella? Not a shade on Larkham or Wilkinson surely? Finbar?

I'd still rank Ella ahead of Larkham, and I rank Larkham ahead of Wilkinson. That said, I find the whole business of trying to rate players from different eras against each other pretty futile in any sport. There are too many variables. For what it's worth, though, Mark Ella could do everything the incumbents do and more. The tragedy was that he retired early to escape the appalling Allan Jones, Wallaby coach of the time.

quote: You sense the unbalanced hand of mainly SH voting in this all time team I think?

I think the bigger problem is that, patently obviously, none of the selectors for the World XV are older than 25. Given that it's a futile exercise anyway.

	23-08-2002 11:25									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Havak That all time team is truly bizarre - clearly voted for and compiled by vested interests. Nice to see Richards get the recognition he deserves but just one Englishman is simply ludicrous - and having a recent Aussie forward in the mix shows the 'selectors' involved here are pretty clueless too.

quote: I have to say, I find both those teams- Tri-Nations and World - quite bizarre. Who selected them? I mean to say, for crying out loud - Jonah Lomu??

Bizarre seems to be the word. The selectors are independant and work for Rugby World magazine, the most respected rugby magazine in the world. Never read one myself.

It's different ... note this sort of thing is hard to do for personnal opinion differs with everyone. And as for Lomu, I suppose they wanted at least one player who was still in action.

quote: Originally posted by Havak Eales is a hell of a nice guy and a well rounded player but anyone who picked him specifically at lock over his English opponent from last year really needs their head examining big time.

Skill is the main factor - but as you said Eales is one hell of a nice guy and can come through under immense pressure (most famously to the heartbreak of the kiwis ). I think it's more debatable than it seems.

quote: Originally posted by Havak There is one question I’m itching to ask by the way Neostar, you do realise you lost the tri-nations don’t you???

Sad but true To be entirely honest (and don't quote me) we have had the thing for a long while and I can't really say we easily deserved it above NZ. I knew the glory days would slump for a while with Rod and Eales retiring (and such is happening) but the WC can (will) still turn out good for us. We have time.

	23-08-2002 11:53									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Havak How about one of you has a stab first though – and please don’t just write “the Wallabies” Neostar?

You asked for it Havak (sorry, some fellows have retired):


NeoStar's Mostly Current World XV
15. M Burke (Aus), 14. Campese (Aus), 13. Tait (Sco), 12. S Gibbs (Wal), 11. Lomu (NZ), 10. Mehrtens (NZ), 9. Gregan (Aus), 8. Brooke (NZ), 7. Back (Eng), 6. Pienaar (SA), 5. McBride (Ire), 4. Murray (Sco), 3. D Young (Wal), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. Noriega (Aus).

A (few) reserves:M Rogers, J Wilkinson, Owen Finegan, J Eales, Blanco (Fra)

EDIT - LDiCesare rightly pointed out that if Campo is there, Blanco should be in contention too. I make only that concession (and France should have someone). I told you this was hard...


BTW More on this Rugby World Magazine in relation to the World XV - published in 1960 and celebrating its 500th issue, announced a team incorporating who it considers to be the best players to have played the game in the past 42 years.

	23-08-2002 13:03									#349
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Neostar, I feel sorry for you. You included a few NH players but 2 Welsh for one English and no French... Why are the Welsh currently trampled by both France and England one wonders.
Robinson (Eng) is probably the best full back right now. Campo! Then put Blanco too, please keep current players or who retired last year. Your wingers choice is certainly not mine. I can't say much who I would put there now, but I think the boks have a good winger can't remember his name). I don't know for the oter one. Centers should include Traille. He might not be the top now but he is already very very good and will improve. Considering O'Driscoll totally fooled the welsh and scot centers in the last tournament, he probably would be better there than either of your choices. I think Umaga should fit in somewhere too, as center or wing. Galthie is clearly superior to about everyone else as a scrum half. I will let someone else about the absence of English locks and propose better choices. In the front row, I think Hasan (Argentina and Agen) deserves a notion. I don't know for the other prop. I should see an England-France match to decide...

	23-08-2002 13:39									#350
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quote: and I rank Larkham ahead of Wilkinson

I don’t argue with that, but it’s very, very close and getting closer. And Wilko is five years younger. If he stays injury free Wilko will surpass Stephen I have no doubt. The lad is an immense talent and being protected well (he plays for a useless club so gets plenty of rest).

quote: The tragedy was that he retired early to escape the appalling Allan Jones, Wallaby coach of the time.

These situations truly are tragic. I saw Neil Back frozen out of the England side during his prime thanks to Jack Rowell (now back at Bath – and they truly deserve each other!). That was tragedy too because Neil is superb now but ten years ago he was absolutely awesome.

quote: I think the bigger problem is that, patently obviously, none of the selectors for the World XV are older than 25. Given that it's a futile exercise anyway.

I had thought this myself too – but then it amazes me Deano got it having retired totally five years ago?

quote: I think it's more debatable than it seems.

I was never suggesting that he wasn’t a great player – he was. But the bottom line is the better lock is Johnson – better in the engine room, better in the lineout, easily the equal as a ball carrier. Not so great at kicks at the posts admittedly. It’s more clear cut than you think. The pressure issue definitely isn’t as significant as you think either – Jonno has of course carried off a test series victory in South Africa which I’m sure John would have loved to do. As captain of England Martin faces pressure cookers you probably wouldn’t believe – you should see the atmosphere as an England side runs out in Wales or in Paris.
Look Finbar will already be upset so I had better stop soon – but you might be surpised to find Johnson has played significantly over twice the number of first class matches Eales did in his career (when Johnson took the Lions to RSA in 97 he had already played over 40 times that season!) – and he is still there and still really at the peak of his powers. On the flip side of that Eales to my mind ducked out too early – he should be leading you into RWC 03. I have heard and dismissed the argument he has nothing left to prove – he never beat either England or NZ in a world cup competition in the Professional era – that leaves a massive question mark over his achievements to my mind, and should have provided ample incentive to play on?
Having said all that if I was building an invitation side I’d would put both men down first on the team sheet.

quote: but the WC can (will) still turn out good for us. We have time.

Yep you won the tri-nations in 2000 and 2001 and deserved it fully both times (once again, for emphasis, I’m not anti-Aussie rugby per se). But New Zealand look stronger to me at this time – it was their tactics that lost in Sydney more than anything wasn’t it? (“kicking the pill away”).

The world cup is wide open – you have to be favourites as home advantage is a massive thing. I’ll check the draw but I hope you have to face either New Zealand or England to be able to win it – a victory without that is hollow indeed. France could be an awesome test but it depends which side they get out of bed – in the semi in 99 they got out the right side, in the final they didn’t get out at all!

Interesting side. I the same spirit here is my current invitational XV (if I were doing a world XV French players would be involved – I’m looking only at UK-SANZAR here).

Havak's Current Invitational XV
15. J Robinson (Eng), 14. A Healey (Eng), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. B Tune (Aus), 10. S. Larkham (Aus), 9. Gregan (Aus), 8. S Quinell (Wales), 7. N Back (Eng), 6. R Hill (Eng), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. T Smith (Sco).

A (few) reserves from which I would pick my seven subs: Corry (Eng), Roberston (NZ), MCCaw (NZ), G Smith (Aus), D Herbert (Aus) A Mauger (NZ), D Luger (Eng), L Moody (Eng), B Kay (England), G Murphy (Ire), G Rowntree (Eng), R Howley (Wal), B O’Driscoll (Ire), S Taylor (Sco).

I am bound to have overlooked someone. And yes there are no Boks deliberately – I would not currently pick any. I might have kept some of your choices if they were still playing.

I prefer the Aussie half backs to the Kiwi ones myself. The front row would have been the Lions front row if Vickery had been fit – I can’t in all good conscience choose any SANZAR front rower. Jack gets in because I knew none of you would accept the real second row of two Englishmen.

Okay Finbar and Caligastia – can we have your teams?

	23-08-2002 13:41									#351
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Incidentally LDiCesare please note I didn't look at french playeers for this squad - I used it simply to pointout to them where Brits would displace Aussies and Kiwis.

There would be several French in my world XV of course.

	23-08-2002 15:05									#352
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quote: Incidentally LDiCesare please note I didn't look at french playeers for this squad

I noticed. You had to leave a few SH lads in.

	23-08-2002 17:23									#353
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar we have had the thing for a long while

You call 2 years a long while?? I would say Oz have had the Bledisloe Cup for a long while, but not the Tri-nations.

quote: Originally posted by NeoStar The lad is an immense talent and being protected well (he plays for a useless club so gets plenty of rest).

How will playing for a useless club and getting plenty of rest help him to develop his skills?

	23-08-2002 17:30									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I don’t argue with that, but it’s very, very close and getting closer. And Wilko is five years younger. If he stays injury free Wilko will surpass Stephen I have no doubt.

But surpass him how? They're different players with different strengths. I only rank Larkham higher because (and I haven't seen a massive amount of Wilkinson outside our Tests) he seems to have more skills options available. But, ultimately, I suspect they will always be different players.

quote: These situations truly are tragic. I saw Neil Back frozen out of the England side during his prime thanks to Jack Rowell (now back at Bath – and they truly deserve each other!). That was tragedy too because Neil is superb now but ten years ago he was absolutely awesome.

Ella - and a number of others - quit early because Alan Jones' coaching method was basically to divide the squad, play favourites, and harangue. It worked, briefly and spectacularly, but at great overall cost.

quote: I had thought this myself too – but then it amazes me Deano got it having retired totally five years ago?

Who knows? As I said, I think the whole exercise is futile.

quote: Look Finbar will already be upset so I had better stop soon

I checked the calendar. It was about time for a Jonno-fest. I'm not rising to any of the several paras of bait.

quote: But New Zealand look stronger to me at this time – it was their tactics that lost in Sydney more than anything wasn’t it? (“kicking the pill away”).

They are stronger this time. My view was that they kicked the pill away too much. (They used the same tactics they used in the appalling, arctic conditions in Christchurch, where the tactics were appropriate; while in Sydney, apart from a strong wind, the conditions were perfect for attacking rugby) It wasn't a case of their tactics costing them the match as much it was their tactics making - in my view - the job harder because you can't score if you ain't got the pill. But it was their choice. If it cost them the match it's their bad luck, but there's obviously no way of knowing.

Oh, and Andrew Mehrtens, who blamed ref Andre Watson for the Sydney loss, saying Watson should have been ashamed of his performance, has finally been cited for his stupid outburst.

quote: I’ll check the draw but I hope you have to face either New Zealand or England to be able to win it – a victory without that is hollow indeed. France could be an awesome test but it depends which side they get out of bed – in the semi in 99 they got out the right side, in the final they didn’t get out at all!

I know it's Friday, Havak, but pur-leeeeeeeeze! A team that wins a comp - and, on the way, through no fault of its own, doesn't end up facing certain other teams because the certain other teams weren't good enough to make it through - enjoys a hollow victory?

quote: Havak's Current Invitational XV 15. J Robinson (Eng), 14. A Healey (Eng), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. B Tune (Aus), 10. S. Larkham (Aus), 9. Gregan (Aus), 8. S Quinell (Wales), 7. N Back (Eng), 6. R Hill (Eng), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. T Smith (Sco).

I'm having to work from memory with most of the NH players, but I would probably only make one change to that lot. Quite honestly, I would have Stirling Mortlock in place of A. Healey and my opinion is genuine, and in no way related to any other discussions in our threads about A. Healey. Healey is quick and has skills; Mortlock is quick, very strong, a line-breaker, and a great tackler. I don't think you've seen enough of him this season to realise how he has developed.

I'm possibly also tempted to suggest McCaw in place of one of the flankers, but my memory of your incumbents isn't good enough.

BTW, who's your goalkicker?

quote: Okay Finbar and Caligastia – can we have your teams?

I've amended your team.

	23-08-2002 18:35									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Okay Finbar and Caligastia – can we have your teams?

Sure-

Caligastia's Current Invitational XV
15. B. Russell (SA), 14. M. Rogers (Aus), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. P. Bernat-Salles (Fra), 10. Mehrtens (NZ), 9. B. Kelleher (NZ), 8. S. Robertson (NZ), 7. J. Van Neikerk (SA), 6. O. Finegan(Aus), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. R. McCaw (NZ), 1. T Smith (Sco).

	23-08-2002 18:56									#356
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quote: You had to leave a few SH lads in.

One or two.

quote: How will playing for a useless club and getting plenty of rest help him to develop his skills?

It isn’t about skills – it’s about avoiding injury and burnout. He will not reach his potential if he burns out at 25. Our top players are exceeding 40 first class games every season. It’s way too much rugby and it takes massive toll on the bodies. Even with NPC I doubt the top kiwi players are playing that much rugby?

quote: But surpass him how? They're different players with different strengths.

Well for a start he should still be playing when Larkham is retired so that certainly surpasses him right?
Seriously though Wilko’s kicking game has always been better though I’m not denying Larkham vision and passing is superior. Wilko continues to improve though – those aspects of his game are getting better. He makes some beautiful clean breaks these days as well, and he is immensely strong – you should see him make a tackle. He is one of a new mould of fly half for us – not the old type who kicked the pill to the corners all the time.

quote: It worked, briefly and spectacularly, but at great overall cost.

Is Jones still alive and does he still believe he was right despite evidence to the contrary? If so he and Jack Rowell should get on like a house on fire.

quote: I'm not rising to any of the several paras of bait.

Okay okay – just watch the guy in the autumn and give me your assessment. I’ll accept you verdict after you have done so. Even is you don’t rate him I’ll accept…that there’s no hope for you.

I still don’t know why you have such trouble with this – the guy is one of the very best ever pure and simple, and the latest in a long long line of super English locks. They have always been our strength, and even when the team is fairly poor we have generally had solid locks.

quote: has finally been cited for his stupid outburst.

I’m very pleased to hear this actually. He was out of order. Can we expect Gregan to be similarly cited for his overt criticism of the citing officials and committee. Exactly the same deal to my mind – he should have kept his mouth firmly closed?

quote: A team that wins a comp - and, on the way, through no fault of its own, doesn't end up facing certain other teams because the certain other teams weren't good enough to make it through - enjoys a hollow victory?

Oh very nice try. Lets look at what I said again shall we. I mentioned the France you played in the final bore no resemblance to the one that beat the All Blacks. I said I hope that if you win next year you will have to face England or the All Blacks – what could be the number one and two ranked teams at that time – to gain a sense of achievement. So where exactly did I call your RWC 99 win a hollow victory then?

quote: I don't think you've seen enough of him this season to realise how he has developed.

Probably true, however “quick, very strong, a line-breaker, and a great tackler” describes Healey perfectly. The fact he generally breaks the line by avoiding the tackle rather than breaking it might be the difference? So really I need to see them on the same field to judge?

quote: I'm possibly also tempted to suggest McCaw in place of one of the flankers, but my memory of your incumbents isn't good enough.

He is very, very close to so doing even for me. Hill is Finnegan without the faults and a little more skill. Backy is George Smith but with ten years more experience and guile (not pinged so often).

quote: BTW, who's your goalkicker?

Whoops! Well it’s not Jonno you will be pleased to hear. I was aiming for the Barbarians style - win through scoring tries. You are not buying that? Okay, well believe it or not Healey can take those duties at a stretch – but his distance is limited.
Okay, right, out goes Larkham and in comes Wilko – that sorts the kicking properly (I believe he is better than Merhtens in terms of success ratio)?

Just caught your side Caligastia - Bernat-Salles - hell yes. We perhaps ought to do a new XV with frenchmen fully considered (Galthie and Pelous need serious consideration). But tell me that isn't McCaw the loose forward at hooker???

The South African openside is fast and strong but he is not yet good enough to displace Backy for me. I don't know the Bok fullback - thats isn't the lad who played there against Australia is it?

	23-08-2002 19:02									#357
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Just caught your side Caligastia - Bernat-Salles - hell yes. We perhaps ought to do a new XV with frenchmen fully considered (Galthie and Pelous need serious consideration). But tell me that isn't McCaw the loose forward at hooker???

Oops, my mistake, Ill have to do a re-shuffle.

quote: The South African openside is fast and strong but he is not yet good enough to displace Backy for me. I don't know the Bok fullback - thats isn't the lad who played there against Australia is it?

Yep.

	23-08-2002 19:16									#358
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Caligastia's (amended) Current Invitational XV
15. B. Russell (SA), 14. M. Rogers (Aus), 13. T Umaga (NZ), 12. W Greenwood (Eng), 11. P. Bernat-Salles (Fra), 10. Mehrtens (NZ), 9. B. Kelleher (NZ), 8. S. Robertson (NZ), 7. J. Van Neikerk (SA), 6. R. McCaw (NZ), 5. Chris Jack (NZ), 4. M Johnson (Eng), 3. P Vickery (Eng), 2. Wood (Ire), 1. T Smith (Sco).

	23-08-2002 19:20									#359
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quote: Originally posted by finbar As I said, I think the whole exercise is futile.

You are quite right Finbar, the said exercise is more than futile, in my own opinion it's even pointless.

Jonnah Lomu can be a tremendous attacker, when its team mate accidentally give him the ball, but he is certainly not the best number 11 player, his defensive skills and imagination should dramatically improve before he could be ranked as the top player.

	23-08-2002 19:52									#360
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Fair comments there Tamerlin.

I'm just sitting here smiling that Caligastia's revised side booted another Aussie out.

Be interesting to see how the autumn internationals affect this dream team. I'll be watching the Bok fullback closely - and comparing the Bok openside to Backy and McCaw to our Hilly too.

Caligastia might like to look carefully at our full back - we have never had such a dynamic attacking player in that position as young Mr Robinson.

A couple of links to cheer Finbar up over what is a long weekend in England (bank holiday).

Legend to retire

the boys are crocked

I have no doubt we will lose the orange cup tomorrow.

Last edited by Havak on 23-08-2002 at 20:04