13-11-2002 14:10									#301
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Why would that be a problem? Using Wealth just means a greater focus on economic and industrial development.

At the expense of everything else!
Wealth is saying that of the things we value (power, knowledge or wealth) wealth is the most important. I think many people, especially CCCP, would feel a little uneasy about declaring that about all else we want money. The Morale penalty is designed to show that the people have become accustomed to having material things, and, like Morgan, prize comfort so highly it has a detrimental effect on society. It creates a society based on greed and the rat race, which is exactly the mistake that caused Earth's downfall IMHO. While of course the Peacekeepers will do whatever the majority wants, I believe we should value happiness over material gains.

I'm sure there was a point in there somewhere!

	13-11-2002 14:15									#302
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Only knowledge could improve our well being as human kind.

	13-11-2002 14:22									#303
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well put!

	13-11-2002 14:35									#304
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Isn't the whole point of Marxism to create a society in which everyone has their material needs met? Quite apart from that, Wealth will often result in faster research than Knowledge, due to the economy bonus.

	13-11-2002 16:45									#305
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Yes that is Marxism, everyone has their needs met, whereas wealth is more likely to lead to injustice and apathy (I doubt the drones get any more, and the Morale expanation seems to suggest apathy)

While it is true it can lead to faster research, I was only refering to roleplaying, not necessarily the actual effects. I simply think we should be more concerned with knowledge than with wealth, as i think wealth breeds greed and injustice.

I'd like to see a poll not on what values model we should use because it helps us in the game, but on what we should strive for, what we actually value.

	13-11-2002 16:49									#306
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How so? Wealth is, as I have said, merely a focus on industrial and economic development. How does this lead to injustice?

	13-11-2002 17:21									#307
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Generally a focus upon gaining money (the 'rat race') and on economics development leads to some people having much money, whereas others get less. It generates conflict between people and greed. I believe the focus on industrial development leads to plundering of Planet's resources to try to make more money. Quite simply I think our development as a faction depends more on our knowledge and influence than the amount of Ec we have.

	13-11-2002 20:36									#308
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"Being determines consciousness" means, amongst other meanings, that the most important thing is to give food to the people. After that they will get aware of their handicapped social position and start to fight for their freedom.

Marx hasn't said anything that can lead to conclusion the "Knowledge" is the best of all values listed in SMAC (survival, power, knowledge, wealth).

	13-11-2002 21:17									#309
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I never said he had, though I think he would have disagreed with the pursuit of wealth above all else. I believe knowledge should be our aim, but then I am no Marxist.

	13-11-2002 21:43									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I never said he had, though I think he would have disagreed with the pursuit of wealth above all else. I believe knowledge should be our aim, but then I am no Marxist.

This discussion has come up before, as well. Personally, I think [Wealth+Free Market]=[Hell on Chiron] pretty much as you are describing. [Wealth+Planned] on the other hand might even be seen as describing an idealized euro-socialism, which is indeed pretty darn close to the direction Marx and Engels wanted to promote.

Taking the issue to be the distribution of the access to resources for individuals, absolutely the confusion of "wealth" and "right to necessities" which provides the steam for the turbines of optional consumption markets is abhorrent. Planned economic choices are an alternative way to deal with the central problems of appetite and decisions regarding the allocation of resources. Wealth in this context can mean more resources not enslaved to the appetites of private, even sociopathic individuals. Ideally, of course.

	13-11-2002 21:50									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac So if CCCP wants to prevent FM, two things can be done: 1) Give crawlers an important place in our economy. On Old Earth such mechanization would cause redundancies of human workers, but here on Alpha Centauri with our limited population there is always need for extra work forces. 2) Prepare for Golden Age. Not sure what we would need to do for that. Build Rec Commons and Network Nodes??

I believe 2) will also be abetted by cheap and easily available Holo Theatres.

	13-11-2002 22:45									#312
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or the Virtual World

	14-11-2002 02:50									#313
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I think we won't trigger the Golden Age without switching the silders on 10% or even 20% PSYCH.

	14-11-2002 03:04									#314
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Do you have a problem with that? Combined with Wealth, the resultant economic benefits would more than outweigh the costs.

	14-11-2002 03:18									#315
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Besides Kirov, extra Psych represents government support for matters such as cheaper education, mobility & public transport, social & health security, culture, cheaper drinks in the Rec Commons... Surely you cannot be against that?

Edit: seeing its name "Psych", I suppose it also contains support for religious and spiritual organizations, and going to the psychiatrist (???). Right? I didn't know our citizens needed that much mental healthcare. What kind of future is this?

	14-11-2002 13:35									#316
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Its a future where we land on a living planet who defends itself from colonization by sending aggressive telepathic worms, Maniac, to me thats a real clarification about the needs of psychiatrist, though I still believe a good worker who know that he produces his own existence and environment wont need a psychiatrist.

About the Wealth thing, contrary to Lucky, I still think that valuing Wealth wont lead us anywhere than to a hell. If people and government value wealth that much, they will soon call for Free Market to raise more and more energy credits. Remember in what excesses the "lack of energy" -- while they already had plenty -brought the USA back on Old Earth.

And about the OOC comparaison, remember Knowledge has +1 Eff, whihc makes it very profitable for PK, while the difference of economy (+1) is not huge by itself (+1energy per base). I let you make the calcutation, but this +1 Wealth against this +2 Knowledge / +1 Efficiency would need a really disproportionate faction to be scientifically more efficient.
Moreover, +2Knowledge means a 20% "discount" on tech prices, meaning the more you advance, the better efficient it becomes.
I hope I was clear.

	14-11-2002 13:37									#317
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The +1 Economy bonus is not very effective on it's own, true, but if combined with a GA it provides the benefits of FM, and if combined with FM it brings in huge amounts of energy.

	14-11-2002 13:40									#318
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Past the +2 Economy, it only brings commercial additional revenues, which is not such a big deal. As I said, it can be intersting, but in a very disproportionate way.

	14-11-2002 13:53									#319
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quote: Past the +2 Economy, it only brings commercial additional revenues, which is not such a big deal. As I said, it can be intersting, but in a very disproportionate way.

The extra commerce income is hardly unimportant, unless you plan on going to war with every single faction simaltaneously.


EDIT: oh, and it also creates extra energy on base squares, but that is TRULY unimportant.

	14-11-2002 14:49									#320
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Pande, how do you want to achieve +2 ECON without neither FM and Wealth?

	14-11-2002 15:41									#321
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I think he's arguing that you don't need it (+2 Econ that is)

	14-11-2002 16:17									#322
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You indeed dont need it, despite you can play with. I'm just pointing that if Wealth make a better Science rate than Knowledge, you faction is totally disproportionate. It can happen. But most of the time, the best science rate is at FM+Knowledge, except for huge factions, where its green+Knowledge.

About the commerce thing, when you have 40 bases more than the biggest opposite faction, its pointless to have a better commerce rate, since you dont have commerce at all.
Moreover, the Hive and/or the Believer have a slight tendancy to destroy other factions, which makes one less faction to trade with. It doesnt happen at the beginning of the game, but when you reach midgame or late game, you have usually one or two factions left (beside your own).

	14-11-2002 16:30									#323
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quote: You indeed dont need it, despite you can play with. I'm just pointing that if Wealth make a better Science rate than Knowledge, you faction is totally disproportionate. It can happen. But most of the time, the best science rate is at FM+Knowledge, except for huge factions, where its green+Knowledge.

Like you said, it depends on the situation. However, if we go Planned, we would probably get far better research from Wealth + GA in our core bases than from Knowledge.

quote: About the commerce thing, when you have 40 bases more than the biggest opposite faction, its pointless to have a better commerce rate, since you dont have commerce at all.

It doesn't make it any less valuable in absolute terms, especially since the bases that can take the most advantage of it will be getting most of the commerce.

quote: Moreover, the Hive and/or the Believer have a slight tendancy to destroy other factions, which makes one less faction to trade with. It doesnt happen at the beginning of the game, but when you reach midgame or late game, you have usually one or two factions left (beside your own).

You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

	14-11-2002 17:12									#324
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quote: Like you said, it depends on the situation

I didnt say that. It depend of the way you play SMAC. I prefer an industrial style than a commercial one, and my faction is always adapted to this. I'll make a save and show what Demo/Planned/Knowledge/Eudaimonia can do though.

quote: It doesn't make it any less valuable in absolute terms, especially since the bases that can take the most advantage of it will be getting most of the commerce.

Im not exactly sure of how the commerce income is determined, but IIRC, its the first base of your faction and the first base of each other faction, and their wealth determine the trade income. While a commercial bonus would improve this income for the bases linked (meaning for the same #bases that the opponent have), knowledge will improve efficiency (allowing you thus a higher rate of research with no penalties) and save energy and decrease the cost of research. it is obvious that knwoledge favors science and wealth favor EC , I cant beleive you argue on that.

quote: You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

Well, where do you think they get their weapons ? :nasty: And anyway, theres always a couple of factions whom you know you cant trade with.

	14-11-2002 17:14									#325
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Like you said, it depends on the situation. However, if we go Planned, we would probably get far better research from Wealth + GA in our core bases than from Knowledge.

I haven't ever found that personally, as Pande said, a +1 Econ rating isn't worth much, its just when you get +2 that you get large bonuses. (BTW what's GA? )

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus You obviously find far more aggressive AIs than I usually do. Most of the time in my games, most of the factions that get eliminated were done in by me.

Either that or you are a more aggressive player than Pande. I usually find most factions get eliminated by the Hive or the Believers, because i don't usually attack anyone until the mid-game.

	14-11-2002 17:16									#326
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Ga = golden age

	14-11-2002 17:22									#327
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Pande, even if at very large empire (40+ bases) indeed Effic is the main factor, in our situation is far more better to have +2 Econ than +2 Res and +1 Effic.

Drogue, GA means Golden Age (+2 Growth, +1 Econ at this base). With GA we can have the same bonuses as FM, but Wealth is crucial in this plan.

	14-11-2002 17:29									#328
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Ahhh... but is it better to have many specialists to get Golden Age with Wealth to +2 Econ, or is it better to have those specialists as librarians or workers with Knowledge and the +2 Res, +1 Eff? Personally, I would favour the latter.

	14-11-2002 17:42									#329
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Pandemoniak, ok, Wealth might be a less good choice than Knowledge for the CCCP ideals, and a human player is able to survive against the AI without +2 Eco, but if you want any of your ideals become reality, you need to make compromises with Free-Marketeers who want +2 Economy under any circumstance. GA+Wealth seems the only method to do so.

	14-11-2002 20:29									#330
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Achieving GA with 20% psych but without specialists should be possible in a few years, once we have

1. lifted energy restrictions
   
2. tidall harnesses
   
3. boreholes
   

Before that, not many of our bases will GA without specialists, so Drogue's point is well-made. In the meantime, the industrial bonus of wealth is what makes it most appealing - combined with planned we have a great opportunity to expand our infrastructure, readying ourselves for the potential GA phase.

As for the social side, I always envisioned that the benefits of a golden age would benefit all strata of society (including the drones) so do not consider it rife with injustice. Wealth=prosperity. (ack, now I sound like a politician . . . )