06-10-2002 02:29									#271
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to 2) Economics do

	11-10-2002 01:58									#272
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The inspectors sent around to see what is neede are the real dominators of it all. This people could fix what you need and it neednīt be legitimated democratically at all.
And if there would be somebody, who controls them, just this one would be the dominator.
I want free acces to all means of production.
That would imply we would have enough of those. But we havenīt.
The agenda for any planned economy must be to provide the means as fast and as secure as possible.
Iīd like democratic polling about how to achieve this. I think the actual system is like that.


What about changing our constitution as we go to other economics and states ? Would be pretty much work. ( Who does it ? ) The roleplaying was fine !! But how to decide who owns what in Free Market ?
Or who becomes dictator in Police State resp Prophet in Fundi ? (ok the last oneīs Crisler )

If we got enough cities and there isnīt any danger any more - how abot giving every citizen - who wants - his own city, so he can control the producement and the units suported by it. The others who think thatīs too much work can live in the cities of the generalness and poll about general questions like war or peace, Expansion, ... .
I would love to have my own city.

	11-10-2002 04:57									#273
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I am with you on this

	11-10-2002 12:05									#274
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quote: Originally posted by Schinkenjoe The inspectors sent around to see what is neede are the real dominators of it all. This people could fix what you need and it neednīt be legitimated democratically at all.

How can you blame them ? they're just messengers !
They come to your home, write down and carry the message to the industry, what powers do they have ?

	11-10-2002 15:04									#275
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Because there isn't any control whether they are carrying the right message. They could just tell what they want to the producers.

	12-10-2002 18:35									#276
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Oh, I guess you would prefer policemen behind everyone to watch and sever instead of messengers properly elected by the people to serve the people ?

	12-10-2002 18:46									#277
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Just as bad/good.

	12-10-2002 18:54									#278
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So you cant make the difference between a Police State and a Democracy ?

	12-10-2002 19:41									#279
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I just want to say both are as corruptible as the other. Being democratically elected doesn't equal being honest and genuinely interested in the people's good, just as wearing a uniform doesn't.

And it isn't that black&white. IRL I'm in favour of more police on the street, more "Law and Order" in big crime cities. Does that immediately make me anti-democratic or ultra-authoritarian? Perhaps anarchists think the answer is "Yes", I don't know.

	12-10-2002 19:46									#280
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maniac it think it makes you more a realist then something else but more police on the street doesnt work that good i think but i totally understand your views. Belgium isnt that much different form the Netherlands

	12-10-2002 20:12									#281
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Well on itself police doesn't work indeed. It needs to be combined with efforts to improve the socio-economic status of the groups doing most crimes.

A combination in other words. I firmly disagree with people only advocating one thing: only improving the socio-economic status (like Pande and some naive lefties) or only more police on the streets (like Vlaams Blok and other naive righties).

	15-10-2002 19:59									#282
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Balancing improved education, improved working conditions and a system of law based on facilitating a productive life-style rather than the ownership of property is to my mind the policy to pursue. I will always vote that direction.

By the way- if anyone is hanging out who hasn't checked in at the new citizen registry in the "topped" threads, you should. We seem to have suffered more horribly at the hands of the mind worms than previously suspected.

	17-10-2002 13:18									#283
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New advertisment campaign for the CCCP

Attachment: cccpadvert.gif
This has been downloaded 71 time(s).

	17-10-2002 14:28									#284
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Good one.

	19-10-2002 18:29									#285
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New ads :

Attachment: cccpadvert2.gif
This has been downloaded 58 time(s).

	19-10-2002 19:47									#286
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:=)

	19-10-2002 19:59									#287
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Love the recruitment ads. will have to get my designers to work on STEP ones

	19-10-2002 21:42									#288
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ok the ketcup song and a britney song Pande are you feeling ok

	19-10-2002 22:23									#289
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Yes, I'm very well, thanx
And you ?

	19-10-2002 22:39									#290
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i am pretty fine to on fire but thats all

	21-10-2002 20:23									#291
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That second ad image is extremely cool. Very nice work. The first one is nice work as well, but it doesn't feel very 'cccp' to me- but then, I'm kind of uptight.

	12-11-2002 21:24									#292
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ATTENTION ALL CCCP MEMBERS!!

Comrade Pandemoniak is going to be taking a short break, hopefully nowhere near Mexico*. He has stepped down as foreman and has asked that an election be held for his replacement. please post here if interested in the position. I'll run, as well.

Our current agenda exists thanks almost entirely to non-member Maniac, who has pointed out a disparity of development in outlying bases. Furthermore, we are on the ropes as far as an eventual decision to go with Free Market econ goes. Let's die with our boots on.




*Trotsky humor, not anti-Mexican

	13-11-2002 00:49									#293
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Do you still accept new members??

Btw, what exactly do you mean with those last few sentences?

	13-11-2002 02:19									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Do you still accept new members??

Of course!

quote: Btw, what exactly do you mean with those last few sentences?

First of last few sentences explanation:

quote: Originally posted by Maniac(in Merchant Exchange) We have also noticed our industrial development is focused almost exclusively on New Apolyton. Several members of the CCCP have told me this causes growing unrest with our drone population. They believe the "elite in New Apolyton is creating extra comfort for themselves while ignoring the outer bases". So to prevent factionwide unrest I'd like to propose a more homogeneous development of our faction. To be more concrete, I'd suggest topping the mineral production of our bases at about 12 to 16 minerals.

Second of last few sentences explanation:
I didn't do a hard analysis on this, but it seems like the current consensus among active "veterans" and especially newly-joining members is that once we have reached sufficient size we should switch to a Free Market economy. "On the ropes" is from boxing, meaning we are getting weak. A long term goal for the CCCP (as you know) has been to develop a workaround which makes a non-FM decision feasable for our faction once it is mature. We have mostly made scattered suggestions and argued economic philosophy and politics, though.

Third of last few sentences explanation:
"Die with our boots on": "Die fighting", "Never give up" etc. I guess here I just mean we should be trying to make our case for non-FM approaches until the mouse is pried from our cold, dying fingers.

I'll work on using more straight-forward language and clearer ideas.

	13-11-2002 02:56									#295
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Ah, this non-Anglosaxon thanks you for the explanation.

As for a few viable alternatives for FM, I can think of some.

First would a combination of Wealth + Golden Age. This gives the same energy benefit as Free Market. Plus a Golden Age is easy to reach with our Peacekeeper talents. I believe Golden Ages require size 3 or 5 to begin, but most citizens want to stay in Planned anyway until our bases have grown to a decent size thanks to the Planned growth bonus, so that's no problem. An ideological problem could be the use of Wealth, but this can be justified by the fact that all people need a minimum of material comfort to reach happiness - hence the focus on creating Wealth and material benefits for ALL citizens.

Another more mid-game alternative is heavy use of specialists - Engineers, Empaths, Thinkers. They can create more economy, research and psych than most worked tiles can produce raw energy. This approach needs a lot of crawlers, but I hope I can construct some condensers for food gathering in my current T&C term, so this shouldn't be a problem. Minerals are found and can be crawled everywhere in the form of forests, soon mines and perhaps also boreholes (should organize a poll about that some time soon...). An added advantage of this method is most of our people will no longer need to do manual labour as it will all be done by machines. Humans can focus on matters of the mind.

These two methods make heavy use of educated citizens (talents and specialists), thus realizing the ideal of equal chances in education for everyone.

So if CCCP wants to prevent FM, two things can be done:
1) Give crawlers an important place in our economy. On Old Earth such mechanization would cause redundancies of human workers, but here on Alpha Centauri with our limited population there is always need for extra work forces.
2) Prepare for Golden Age. Not sure what we would need to do for that. Build Rec Commons and Network Nodes??

	13-11-2002 03:24									#296
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I agree with the idea of non FM playing, I've never used FM as i find that even without i get enough ecological problems, and exploration or assult (more likely defensive assult) becomes impossible, and i keep very little in the way of an army. I generally find that with Planned for growth and then Green late in the game (both with Knowledge and Democracy usually) give me plenty of Ec and enough labs to keep ahead of everyone else.

Besides, I could never bring myself to wreck the havok that free market brings to such a peaceful planet (and yes, i usually play as the Gains)

	13-11-2002 03:29									#297
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To counter Maniacs ideas, I don't think you need excessive specialists or wealth, I think with decent efficiency and a knowledge bonus we have all we need! (Although Golden Ages are always good)

	13-11-2002 04:32									#298
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Popboom per Planned&Demo to get those Specialists, also place Bases nearer together to obtain Specialists in a shorter ammount of Time.


I use no FM either.. and Im usually the Drones ;=)

	13-11-2002 13:01									#299
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quote: An ideological problem could be the use of Wealth, but this can be justified by the fact that all people need a minimum of material comfort to reach happiness - hence the focus on creating Wealth and material benefits for ALL citizens.

Why would that be a problem? Using Wealth just means a greater focus on economic and industrial development.

	13-11-2002 13:57									#300
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I think that 'Wealth' values are the closest of all to Marxist ideology.