16-08-2002 03:34									#181
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"This doesn't really exist. Most Black music has nothing to do with violence, and the music that does glorify violence is produced largely for a white audience. The acceptance of children born out of wedlock is another myth. Whites are more likely to have children out of wedlock than Blacks as a percentage of their own groups, and not just sheer numbers. However, because Black poverty is concentrated and white poverty is not, it makes it much easier to stereotype this as being a Black problem."



Bill Orielly points out this out alot when talking about black issues.

Somthing like 74% of all black kids dont have or will never see there fathers.

	16-08-2002 12:35									#182
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Some of the racist garbage being spewed on here is disgusting. I have a question. What is the history behind the statute law that prohibits recovery of property that was stolen from one group of ancestors by another group of ancestors?? Was there some kind of precedent where people realized this statute law needed to be enacted?? Was it enacted by white Europeans because they knew they would have to cover their asses with this convenient technicality they conjured up?? Africa never belonged to white Europeans or their descendants. It belonged to the hundreds of different ethnic groups that already live there. In fact, I wonder how prevelant racism is among white South African farmers TODAY.

I was hoping someone could answer my question about the history behind the statute law.

	16-08-2002 13:14									#183
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well damn... I can't believe I posted in here then didnt return for so long... anyway, I can't really say **** cause I'm late but i'd just like to note that here in Philly, vast numbers of children don't have/know their fathers (me myself I only see my father a week every year and he won't be visiting this year). There are still plenty of people (black and white) who seem to care and try to keep their families together, but for the most part, **** is bad. However, I see no large disparity between blacks and whites. Plenty of white children don't know their fathers either, probably in the same numbers as black children. Generally, the united families have to do with religious/community reasons which tend to be stronger among older blacks than older whites, going back to church or black nationalism over the years favouring united families and communities. The problem is that spirit is dying and we got 12 year olds have kids now.


thanks

Last edited by Albert Speer on 16-08-2002 at 13:21

	16-08-2002 14:24									#184
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How does the black crime rate and not seeing fathers have to do with Mugabe stealing land from white farmers and giving it to his supporters?

Mr. Fun. do you support what Mugabe is doing?

	17-08-2002 11:12									#185
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Sometimes, when reading Che's comments, I get the distinct impression that he thinks that the world would be oh-so much better off if neither whites nor capitalism existed.

But back to Zimbabwe. What really is the point of trying to establish a system of subsistence farming across the country? Even if Mugabe, with or without British aid, did actually compensate white farmers (thereby doing it "properly") and redistribute the land, what benefit would come of it? He's either got to subdivide it into ridiculously small holdings, which would end up being subsistence in nature, or else give/sell them to a few blacks (which would appear to be what he is doing) - but if he does that then most blacks aren't benefitting anyway. Promoting subsistence agriculture is hardly the way of the future.

Then there are other issues too; what of farms that have been "carved out of the bush" or land that had been made arable as a result of improvements made by whites or under their oversight. After all, I can't imagine that the entirety of sparsely inhabited Zimbabwe of Rhodes' time was all nice plains already under cultivation - later white settlers must have cleared and made arable a fairly significant chunk of the country's land.


Other than that, someone else mentioned that the problems began with Boers settling in South Africa, stealing the land. I'm afraid not. At the time of the first Boer settlers there were few blacks living in South Africa; only the Bushmen who were already on the verge of extinction at the hands of their Zulu neighbours to the north. The truth for all you white-haters out there is that the Boers stepped into largely unoccupied lands that may have formerly "belonged" to the Bushmen. The Zulus destroyed the Bushmen; they just couldn't capitalize on it as the Boers stepped in at just the right moment. Even if the Boers did have a hand in finishing off the Bushmen that is hardly grounds for their land to be handed over to the descendents of the other group that participated in their destruction (except maybe in Che's world, but I digress). All of this ignores of course the fact that the Bushmen were hunter gatherers who would not have been negatively affected by Dutch farmers settling in coastal areas suitable for farming in any event.

	17-08-2002 11:33									#186
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History repeats itself, endlessly....

quote: Gracchi , two Roman statesmen and social reformers, sons of the consul Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus and of Cornelia, the daughter of Scipio Africanus. The brothers were brought up with great care by their mother. Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus,. d.133 B.C., the elder of the Gracchi, fought at Carthage (146 B.C.) and in Spain (137). Alarmed at the state of Italy and the provinces, where the middle class was being totally eliminated by concentration of wealth and lands in the hands of a few, Tiberius stood for the tribunate of the people in 133 B.C. as an avowed reformer. On his election he immediately proposed and succeeded in passing the Sempronian Law (Lex Sempronia Agraria), a modification of the Licinian Rogations (see agrarian laws), which sought to redistribute the public lands that the rich had taken over. Tiberius' colleague Octavius vetoed the law, and Tiberius, by immediately holding an unconstitutional referendum, deposed Octavius. Later in the year Attalus III, king of Pergamum, died and bequeathed his property to Rome; Tiberius proposed to use the bequest to provide capital for the paupers who were to settle the lands allotted under the Sempronian Law. It was now election time, and Tiberius renominated himself; the senate declared this action illegal and had the election postponed. In a great riot on the following day Tiberius was killed. His brother, Caius Sempronius Gracchus,. d.121 B.C., became the organizer of the reform movement begun by Tiberius. After serving (126) as quaestor in Sardinia, he returned to Rome and was elected (123) tribune of the people. Setting out to complete his brother's work, he immediately initiated a series of remarkable social reforms. The chief aim of these reforms was to unite the plebs and the equites, thus undermining the authority of the senate. The Lex Frumentaria benefited the small landholders by reappropriating the proceeds of the tax on allotted lands. The senate, which had formerly used this money for the aggrandizement of the aristocracy, was now required to use it for the good of the poor. In the Lex Judiciaria, Caius won over the equites by granting them control over the judgeships that had heretofore belonged to the senate. Caius was reelected (122) tribune, but the counterproposals of Marcus Livius Drusus began to gain popularity, and the following year Caius was defeated for reelection. Repeal of his measures was proposed, and in the ensuing riots Caius was killed. Within 10 years the reaction had annulled every Gracchan reform, and the social and political war began again, this time to culminate in the fatal and bloody struggle of Marius and Sulla

	17-08-2002 12:11									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber How does the black crime rate and not seeing fathers have to do with Mugabe stealing land from white farmers and giving it to his supporters? Mr. Fun. do you support what Mugabe is doing?

Yes, I support the reclaiming of land that originally belonged to the native African descendants.


But I might change my opinion if someone can explain to me the history behind the statue law.
Apparently, no one participating in this thread is knowledgable enough to answer my question.

	17-08-2002 12:14									#188
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Yes, I support the reclaiming of land that originally belonged to the native African descendants. But I might change my opinion if someone can explain to me the history behind the statue law. Apparently, no one participating in this thread is knowledgable enough to answer my question.

So when can we see you handing your property over to Native Americans to avoid being a hypocrite?

	17-08-2002 12:23									#189
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I have some questions...

what is the nature of many of these farms? Are they generally large? Are commercial crops grown on them? Do blacks work them as fieldhands?

	17-08-2002 12:25									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov So when can we see you handing your property over to Native Americans to avoid being a hypocrite?

l

You mean if I had legislative power??

But really, I always support landmark cases where certain Native American tribes have recovered parts of their original lands in United States and Canada.

	17-08-2002 12:31									#191
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MrFun, you have within yourself the power to repay part of the debt by handing over your possessions to some Native Americans. Why don't you go do it?

Or is it only a matter of when it isn't inconvenient for you?

	17-08-2002 12:33									#192
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I don't have any land property of my own, and I always support Native American victories in such trial cases.

	17-08-2002 12:37									#193
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Yeah, that's easy for you to say now, but let's see if they came and took your property what you would say then.

	17-08-2002 12:40									#194
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You have a point.
Being a poor college student with no real property has an influence on my opinions, I suppose.

	17-08-2002 12:44									#195
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Now put yourself in the place of a Zimbwaweian white farmer with a family. He's been on the land his whole life, and as far as he knows it is his.

Then he's removed, under threat of being killed, without a bit of compensation. He's just evicted, with his family, with nothing.

That is not justice, it's a travesty. As far as I'm concerned, that's like saying you are justified in walking up to me and shooting me in the heart because my grandfather killed your grandfather.

	17-08-2002 12:48									#196
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Ok, so what are your opinions in alleviating the poverty of black South Africans that has resulted from imperial-origin government??

	17-08-2002 14:04									#197
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Well MrFun the people of Zimbabwe were a heck of a lot richer when the whites owned the farms..because large commercial farms are the backbone of the economy and they need workers, these workers get paid..with this money they buy things..ya know food, clothes and other goods. These farms also produce food, lots of it in fact, this is sold often to other countries..this is known as 'exports'. Now these big farms also need seed, feed, machinery, vehicles etc. A lot of this stuff comes from outside the country this is called 'imports'..in fact a whole lot of that other cool stuff those workers buy is from other countries too.

Now what do you think will happen when the backbone of the economy is broken and all those workers are thrown out of work and no food is produced for 'export' and so no one has a job or the money to buy anything..

a) it will solve the problem of poverty
b) everything will go to ratshit

That's a real toughie..take your time..

As for what TO do..well maybe they should have got some more commercial farms..or perhaps use all that (now non-existent) money those farms created to build up other industries..improve education that sort of thing..jobs and education to get out of poverty..I know opposed to stealing land and destroying the most productive sector of the economy it sounds crazy..but you never know..

	17-08-2002 17:12									#198
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "This doesn't really exist. Most Black music has nothing to do with violence, and the music that does glorify violence is produced largely for a white audience. The acceptance of children born out of wedlock is another myth. Whites are more likely to have children out of wedlock than Blacks as a percentage of their own groups, and not just sheer numbers. However, because Black poverty is concentrated and white poverty is not, it makes it much easier to stereotype this as being a Black problem." Bill Orielly points out this out alot when talking about black issues. Somthing like 74% of all black kids dont have or will never see there fathers.

You listen to Bill O'Reilly? And here I thought you were intellegent... my bad.

	17-08-2002 20:01									#199
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok, so what are your opinions in alleviating the poverty of black South Africans that has resulted from imperial-origin government??

Clearly, what has been going on hasn't worked, since the situation in S.A. now is pretty miserable, especially for the whites who are now disenfranchised from the S.A. government.

	18-08-2002 00:50									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Clearly, what has been going on hasn't worked, since the situation in S.A. now is pretty miserable, especially for the whites who are now disenfranchised from the S.A. government.

What are you talking about Boris? Whites vote, have positions in the national cabinent, whites control the entire Western Cape Provincial government...

If the ANC has done anything wrong its listening to the IMF and World Bank too much and adopting their super "liberal" capitalist policies.

	18-08-2002 00:54									#201
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The franchise is the ability to vote, which whites have, so they have not been disenfranchised.

	18-08-2002 03:06									#202
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Except Mugabe prevents food aid getting to those places where people didn't vote the 'right' way..but hey as long as they can vote right Carver..

	18-08-2002 04:01									#203
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COckney, Boris was talking about South Africa.

	18-08-2002 04:20									#204
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Well SA isn't too clever either...

	18-08-2002 11:14									#205
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Bill Orielly points out this out alot when talking about black issues. Somthing like 74% of all black kids dont have or will never see there fathers.

Anyone who uses O'Reily as a source deserves to be painted green and have a feather duster stuck up their rump and then put in a stockade.

Given that I know many more Black people than most white folks (as 2/3rds of my family is Black), just trust me when I say that my experience leads me to believe that Bill is talking our of his big toe. I know exactly one kid who does not know his father, and that his because his father raped his mother. While many of them live in single parent families, they all know their fathers.

The percentage of white teens who have children out of wedlock is 2 tenths of a percentage point higher than the percentage of Black teens who have children out of wedlock. It's just that there aren't an awful lot of political hay to be made by talking about trailer folks.

	18-08-2002 11:15									#206
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quote: Originally posted by David James Sometimes, when reading Che's comments, I get the distinct impression that he thinks that the world would be oh-so much better off if neither whites nor capitalism existed.

Then you're a fool.

	18-08-2002 18:56									#207
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The percentage of white teens who have children out of wedlock is 2 tenths of a percentage point higher than the percentage of Black teens who have children out of wedlock.

Source?

	18-08-2002 20:14									#208
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Is really the numbers of persons born in Wedlock important or relevant at all? There's a hell of a difference between being born out of wedlock by parents that lives together or where both parents takes responsibility in the child and never seeing your father.

	18-08-2002 23:27									#209
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney Well MrFun the people of Zimbabwe were a heck of a lot richer when the whites owned the farms..because large commercial farms are the backbone of the economy and they need workers, these workers get paid..with this money they buy things..ya know food, clothes and other goods. These farms also produce food, lots of it in fact, this is sold often to other countries..this is known as 'exports'. Now these big farms also need seed, feed, machinery, vehicles etc. A lot of this stuff comes from outside the country this is called 'imports'..in fact a whole lot of that other cool stuff those workers buy is from other countries too. Now what do you think will happen when the backbone of the economy is broken and all those workers are thrown out of work and no food is produced for 'export' and so no one has a job or the money to buy anything.. a) it will solve the problem of poverty b) everything will go to ratshit That's a real toughie..take your time.. As for what TO do..well maybe they should have got some more commercial farms..or perhaps use all that (now non-existent) money those farms created to build up other industries..improve education that sort of thing..jobs and education to get out of poverty..I know opposed to stealing land and destroying the most productive sector of the economy it sounds crazy..but you never know..

Economic prosperity is possible with any competent people who own and operate the farms.
Believe it or not, race does not determine agricultural business competence.

	18-08-2002 23:37									#210
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Source?

Me. It was in the Chicago Tribune about ten years ago.