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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:21
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1.Empires in Africa were still worse than ones in Asia or Europe. No African empire could be compared to British, French, Spanish, Chines, Indian empires by their influence. Most of African empires conquered quite large plots only because countries surrounding them were even worse. All African empires were defeated when Europeans came.
2.There WAS racism in America and I won't discuss it. But now racism is minimal. If also counted the reversed racism (blacks against whites) which is almost unforbidden, blacks situation is about equal to whites nowadays (sometimes, like in jobs, blacks situation is even better). So, it seems blacks can't manage, and this is not only about countries, but also about companies (say at least one known black multibillionaire bussinesman), etc. Blacks are good workers in my opinion, but bad chiefs. If someone else controls them (USA in early XIX age, South Africa until the black revolution), country lives good. If, however, leaders are also blacks, everything turns bad. I am ready to discuss, we could search reasons. I don't think it's only race, but race makes a big part (for example, in SE Asia everything is now good, even if they had the same colonial status. And you can't compare what is in those "growing economy" African countries with what is in most of (I know some have stupid totalitarian regimes) former European colnies in Asia)
3.My country, Lithuania, could be good example of how developing country really should look. When we declared independence from Soviet Union rule we looked like most of African colonies when they declared independence. Our economy was oriented only to few "prime" industries, which had to work for all the Union and obviously had lack of job after the collapse. Now we are however a country with growing economies, without terrorism or fight for government, without any crazy totalitarian parties and we do not need humanitarian aid. Those huge companies were reorganised and now could compete in European and American markets (even if some doesn't likes cheap Lithuanian production and makes cases of damping against it, mostly of which we win).
4.Now cold war is ended, and yes, some aid is being given just because recipients became addicted to the aid and without it they'd collapse. Some countries really used aid corectly (like Lithuania where I live, most of others former socialist countries in Europe, SE Asian countries). However, some just takes that aid like profit from some industry and incorporates it in budget and spends it not for improving economic condition. Such countries just becomes addicted to aid.
5.But in apartheid blacks were also safer and there was less HIV. I think the major mistake which was done with SA and which is ussually being done when racist/fascist government is overthrown is that most of countries recognises that new government. Instead, I'd try to install democratic puppet government in that country. This is because when people are unleashed from opressors they tries to opress the former opressors instead of estabilishing a democracy (something like that also happened in Kosowo). So, I think puppet government should be installed until everything is good again (for 10-20 years maybe). That government would be democratic, but would deal with racial/ethnical attacks from both sides very harshly, maybe even with capital sentence. This would lower the probability of radical people from the group, which lost power, trying to opress the other group again and also the probability of revenge by other group.
BTW, as I seen from Ramo's last portion of post, he is racist himself (he is against white race).
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:21
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Jaakko, you just shown that you actually know nothing in both geography and history. You are from FInland so you should know Lithuanians aren't slavs we always fought slavs instead. We are balts, like Latvians. And our language is very different from slavic ones, also the oldest remaining indo-european language by the way. And also we built one of the largest continuous empires in Europe, Lithuanian Great Duchy. So, Lithuania had more influence to the history than Finland (if we consider that Vikings were not only Finnish but also Swedish, Norge). Next time you'll make such a racistic argument please read history book and geographical atlas. This is the same as to claim that Finnish people are all black. Also, Finland is no more western than Lithuanian.
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:21
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Sorry, Lithuanian one is older than languages you names. Obviously, latin language was older, but we don't count it as remaining one (even if Vatican has it as official). All barbaric languages of Roman times are also not remaining (ostgoth, vestgoth, etc.). German, Italian - those languages formed later. Lithuanian language dates back even before official Lithuanian Duchy was created in 1010. Now there are only two still remaining Baltic languages - Lithuanian and Latvian. All other ones are lost. Lithuanian language lived through ages of unification with Poland, when most people spoke Polish, also much time occupation of Russian Empire, when Lithuanian language was forbidden and occupation of Soviet Union, when Lithuanians were being exiled.
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:21
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Well, maybe it was sarcasm but still you should call Lithuanians Baltic instead of Slavic.
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:21
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Jaakko, so please call Lithuanians people also then. If you know historical context, then you could also call them Baltic.
BTW, I am not racist. I think however that races are not equal by all their temperament, etc., but I don't think certain races are better than others. Yes, some races are better in certain spots, but yet again other races might be better than them in other spots.
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Carver
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reprocessing plutonium, Yongbyon, NK
Jan 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefu
Robert Johnson, founder of Black Entertainment TV, is a billionaire. I don't know about multi-. |
$2.5 billion, and Johnson started BET on a budget of about $2000 a week . And he's not a great executive?
Sonic, I am ready and willing to debate this subject but you clearly know nothing of the subject matter. You have been proven wrong on every issue. Your head is filled with many stereotypes about blacks but few facts.
There are many well run black countries in the world, as I have named. There are many well run black companies in the world: Ashanti Goldfields, Dangote, Johnson Publishing (no relation to Robert Johnson), Sayers, H.J. Russell, HARPO, Ariel Capital Managment... go visit blackenterprise.com for some more enlightenment.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:21
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Amazing thread, really.
Crusaders everywhere, waving flags of discontent.
It's their country, they can decide what to do with it, but trying to say punishing someone today for what an ancestor did is as hateful as it is stupid.
As I recall, Mugabee once promised the white farmers would never be disturbed, now for the sake of cronism that promise is voided.
It's up to the people there to speak on this, and believe it or not, whites should have rights in black nations, just as blacks should in white nations.
It seems that some people here think whites should be run out of Africa forever, and that is just as wrong as saying a Chinaman doesn't belong in Europe, or a Blackman in South America.
To argue otherwise is foolish in the extreme.
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:21
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I know Vkings were not Finnish, I said what I said just because I thought Jakko would have argued about Scandinavian influence, not about Finnish influence. And I agree Scandinavian influence was bigger than Lithuanian.
Yes, there are some rich blacks, but if we'd compare the number of rich whites with number of rich blacks, we'd see the difference (and the numbers of blacks and whites in the world are not so different). Most of rich blacks lives in white-ruled countries by the way.
I don't have anything against blacks really, I am discussing this because I am annoyed by such people, who thinks blacks not only should have equal rights, but also more rights than whites. I know if something like there is in Zimbabwe would be done against blacks in some white country, you'd be the first to protest.
I know not everything about black history (nobody knows everything in fact), yes, but I think I know enough to discuss about it. From politics history I know the most on Israel/Palestine dispute, but since there weren't such threads for quite a long time, I decided to discuss here  .
By the way, David Duke's site is a quality site. You can agree or disagree with what he says obviously, but I seriously doubt facts he says are made up. His site is not full of some insults and hatred like some sites are ( http://www.kukluxklan.net for example).
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:21
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No, I DON'T think blacks should be enslaved. I even agree that they should have rights to be elected to parliament/presidents seats. But when country is ruled (more than 60% of government) by blacks it isn't good in my opinion. And this is based on facts. I won't repeat myself, re-read what i claimed in first posts. It is strange when some people thinks there could be only two solutions - either blacks enslaved, either they ruling country. As US example showns, there could be other solutions also. I think US laws about blacks are quite good except at a few places (too lazy to post everything up now, if you really want that I could post though).
BTW, I think Duke's site's facts aren't made up, in most places links are provided. Chris, why do (and many people) think that if person once was KKK member (he isn't anymore), he is a total stupid and he can't even post true facts anymore? Yes, some sites are total blame, but Duke's one isn't. The same you can find on fact based communist, fascist and other sites. For example, in communist site based on true facts youcould see comparing which would show that in USA there was much more people living poorly than in Soviet Union at a time (which would be true), etc. There wouldn't obviously be stated in such site that Stalin killed and exiled many people, that Soviet government used huge propaganda machine. But statistics taht would be given would be true. So the same is with the Duke's site. Don't think democracy beats all other forms of government everywhere (no, I am NOT a fascist neither commie). There are also some qualities in fascism, communism, fundamentalism, authoritarism, etc. Just there are much more flaws in those governments. But if I'd now had to do some pro-Hussein website for example, I'd still found some facts where Iraq would shown better than USA.
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Dr Strangelove
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I think that sanctions should be lifted against Mugabe, not because his policies should be endorsed, but because we don't want him to be able to blame the US and the EU when his policies fail and his country faces mass starvation. Eventually he will be discredited. In the meantime I think that the UK is obligated to give refuge to the whites of Zimbabwe. Likewise I think that the UK and the Netherlands should take back the descendants of their respective settlers in South Africa.
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I will read the thread later. I think the country will not eat after a while.
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12-08-2002 00:50
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