13-08-2002 01:51									#121
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Carver,

quote: And Mugabe is not deporting white people, he is simply making them give up their ill gotten properties.

Land redistribution is a fine idea, but even you must agree that Mugabe's current methods are flawed. Let's take the case of a farmer whose family got their plot of land while the country was a Brittish colony. I think some form of compensation for improvements to the land (irrigation systems, etc.) is in order. Not the land itself, as the premise of redistribution is that the land was stolen.

Now let's take the example (the minority, to be sure) of a farmer who bought his land in 1981. According to an article I read today, these people are being kicked off their land too. That just isn't right.

It's not the idea of land redistribution that's bad. It's the method being used. And the resulting impact on the country. The economy is in ruins, farm production has dropped off to a small fraction of normal output, and most of the targetted land is unoccupied. Much of the land is being given to civil servants and other Zanu-PF hangers-on who haven't a clue how to farm.

-Arrian

	13-08-2002 01:55									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Carver $2.5 billion, and Johnson started BET on a budget of about $2000 a week . And he's not a great executive?

He has his own harem too. Bunnygrrl's aunt used to work for Johnson (not in the harem, though).

	13-08-2002 01:56									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think some form of compensation for improvements to the land (irrigation systems, etc.) is in order. Not the land itself, as the premise of redistribution is that the land was stolen. -Arrian

I don't think any recompense for improvements to stolen property are a good idea. It doesn't discourage land theft.

	13-08-2002 01:57									#124
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He has his own harem too.

I thought that only Arab billionaires had those.

	13-08-2002 02:17									#125
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If you have enough money, anyone can have a harem. Consider Hugh Hefner.

	13-08-2002 02:22									#126
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chegitz,

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. Then again, you are considerably to the left of me politically, so that's to be expected. A good compromise (and one I thought was actually negotiated) would be for the government of Britain to pay all of, or help with, the compensation.

-Arrian

	13-08-2002 02:27									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian chegitz, I understand what you're saying, but I disagree.

Now that's the kind of thing that's so rare on this forum.

	13-08-2002 02:37									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Sava you guys need to shut it, seriously.... instead of saying how the centuries of European colonization, slave trade, and imperialism is wrong, you complain about a bunch of white farmers... the native Africans should kick them off the damn continent...

Hah, Any Euro's and all the America's should do the same with the Africans!

This is a very sick racist comment.

	13-08-2002 03:52									#129
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The bad thing here giving the land back is that when a person is give something they don't always appreciate it.
Giving land to a worker is different from being a farmer.
The worker maybe be a great worker on the farm, but if he does not know what to plant, went to plant, irrigate properly, having all the land in the world is not going to help.

	13-08-2002 04:01									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Carver, I think some form of compensation for improvements to the land (irrigation systems, etc.) is in order.

Zim was still offering compensation for improvements to the land.

quote: Now let's take the example (the minority, to be sure) of a farmer who bought his land in 1981. According to an article I read today, these people are being kicked off their land too. That just isn't right.

Well this gets back back to the admittedly murky area of buying stolen property. Knowingly buying stolen property is illegal. So we have to trace the whole ownership history of the farm.

I'll remind you that not all white owned property is being redistributed. About 25% of the white farms are being left as is. So Zim is using some (good) discrimination on what land to take.

	13-08-2002 04:02									#131
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quote: No, I DON'T think blacks should be enslaved.

Hmmm.. you seem to be having a case of senility in addition to idiocy. Let me refresh your memory:

"So, it seems blacks can't manage, and this is not only about countries, but also about companies (say at least one known black multibillionaire bussinesman), etc. Blacks are good workers in my opinion, but bad chiefs. If someone else controls them (USA in early XIX age, South Africa until the black revolution), country lives good. If, however, leaders are also blacks, everything turns bad. I am ready to discuss, we could search reasons."

So you think:
1. Blacks shouldn't/can't manage businesses.
2. Blacks shouldn't/can't manage governments.
3. Slavery in 19th century US was a good thing.
4. Apartheid in South Africa was a good thing.

You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

quote: I even agree that they should have rights to be elected to parliament/presidents seats. But when country is ruled (more than 60% of government) by blacks it isn't good in my opinion.

Yep, they might try throw off their shackles of oppression. We can't have that.

quote: And this is based on facts.

quote: I won't repeat myself, re-read what i claimed in first posts.

Every single one of your ignorant claims have been refuted.

quote: I think US laws about blacks are quite good

Yes, God bless our racial profiling policies or the crack/powdered cocaine sentencing disparity.

quote: Chris, why do (and many people) think that if person once was KKK member (he isn't anymore), he is a total stupid and he can't even post true facts anymore?

1. I live in the US; you (apparantly) live in Lithuania. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the assertion that 70% of violent criminals are blacks is full of ****.

2. The fact that he was a grand wizard of the KKK shows he has an agenda in oppressing blacks, and is certainly not reliable in providing information on their supposed inferiority. You don't seem to understand the crimes the KKK has committed in the US.

	13-08-2002 06:16									#132
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Stupid racist sh!t flying from every direction. I'm outta here!

	13-08-2002 08:42									#133
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There are here two things : 1. The right (or not) to redistribute the land and 2. the way it is done.

I'll start with no 2 because is more clear and easy. Mugabe is taking the land just to give it to his supporters, without any consideration about skills in farming. Zimbabwe will face a famine and Mugabe's opposants (most of them blacks) will suffer first.

About 1. When in a country there is a huge diparity between poor and rich and specially when the poors are very poor, there is the risk that the poors will take by force the assets of the riches, some of those assets being wasted in the process. You cannot talk about the "fundamental right of private posesion" with a hungry man.
The right of the conquerer for the land is less about time, and more about population. When you conquer a land and settle it, after a few generation (3 or 4, so everyone alive remember as been 'here') the land is rightful own by the conquerer. That's histroy about. But when you conquer a land and settle only a few people who own most of the land, that is true only as long as you have the power to enforce your laws.

	13-08-2002 08:54									#134
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Sonic

Blacks cannot govern a country?
Bahamas

White can govern a country?
Romania

Blacks cannot be chiefs?
Colin Powell

White civs superior to black civ?
Where were white civs during Ancient Egipt (who was black)?

Every large separable group (nations, races, etc) have its ups and downs. Just because black civs are down now doesn't mean blacks are dumber. China is a very good example of a civ/race/nation who was up, is down and it will up again.

	13-08-2002 11:53									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo 1. I live in the US; you (apparantly) live in Lithuania. I can tell you with absolute certainty that the assertion that 70% of violent criminals are blacks is full of ****.

You're right. According to the American government, 51.5 per cent of murderers are black, and 47 per cent of murder victims are also black.

In terms of all violent crimes, 48 per cent committed by blacks and 48 per cent by whites. In terms of rapes, 52 % by whites, 44 per cent by blacks.

The vast majority of crimes are committed against people of the same race.

This info from
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htius.pdf
and
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/soo.pdf

The problem with this statistic is that racists like David Duke point to it and say blacks are more violent than whites. As a result, Every black person gets blamed for the actions of a very small minority.

Blacks in the US are much more likely to murder, and to be the victim of murder compared to whites. However, we're still talking about a small percentage of the population. The number of blacks who committed a murder in 1999 was 25.6 per 100,000, down from 49 per 100,000 in 1980. Even if we use the higher number and multiplied it by say 25 years, we're still talking about 1225 murders per 100,000. So about 99 per cent of the black population in the US are not murderers.

Having said that, I recall that many American black leaders have recognized that there is a problem with high crime rates within their community and they are trying to deal with this problem.

	13-08-2002 14:53									#136
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I didn't said anything bad on Asians.
I don't think blacks should be enslaved, I said it was quite good countries under Apartheid and XIX age America, BUT I really don't want these times to be bcak. Now USA is a very good country without slavery. I couldn't tell the same about SA though.
Yes, Tingkai shown true facts. So there are 51.5 percent black murderers. If comparing with percent of black population, the numbers of blacks murderers/black population becomes even more bigger than analogical white ratings
And I by the way, didn't said every white country is well-governed, please look at first posts.

	13-08-2002 15:35									#137
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If you think life was great under apartheid or slavery then you don't know your history. This is like saying life was better in your countryunder the USSR.

Blacks in South Africa are better off because they have freedom. In terms of economics, things haven't changed a lot. The blacks were poor under apartheid and many still are. But they are free and that is worth a lot.

I think you believe that colour of skin equals likelihood of criminal behaviour when that is in fact in correct.

	13-08-2002 15:42									#138
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No, in our country life wasn't better at the USSR and this is maybe one of the reasons I am against Mugabe. Soviets also taken land from rich people and given it for poors to farm. Something like that is going to be in Zimbabwe. Result of that reform in USSR was that many people start stealing things from government owned farms and although USSR had huge agriculture, it still didn't had much food.

	13-08-2002 15:46									#139
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You misunderstand what I wrote. I'm saying that life under apartheid was terrible just as life in your country was terrible during the Soviet era.

	13-08-2002 17:56									#140
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No, in fact both cases has much differences. South Africa never before white influence was an organised nation with modern economics, which were already available in Europe at a time). So whites helped them much with for example drugs, etc. Maybe life under apartheid was bad, but whites by coming given much to the blacks in South Africa. Maybe if no whites would have settled in South Africa, it would still be somewhere in XIX age. And now South Africa is still not as thid world as some of African countries north of it. I don't say that is because of Apartheid, but I think apartheid played no the most minor role here.

Everything was quite different in Lithuania. Lithuania was a very modern and organised nation before Soviets. Soviets just dragged our economics back by exiling clever people out of Lithuania.

	13-08-2002 19:05									#141
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quote: I don't think blacks should be enslaved, I said it was quite good countries under Apartheid

Yeah, where the black majority was prohibited from marrying with whites, where the black majority was prohibited from having certain jobs, where the black majority was denied the right to vote, where members of the black majority were tortured or executed after peaceful protests. Yeah, Apartheid South Africa sure was a great place to live - provided you have the right skin color.

quote: and XIX age America,

Where half of the population of the Southern states were SLAVES. They were forced to do whatever the master wanted, whether it was to be forced into being raped or having their children taken away from them or giving up all fruits of their labor. Is your brain operational at all?!

quote: BUT I really don't want these times to be bcak.

How ****ing magnanimous of you.

quote: I don't say that is because of Apartheid, but I think apartheid played no the most minor role here.

How could it possibly do that?

quote: Result of that reform in USSR was that many people start stealing things from government owned farms and although USSR had huge agriculture, it still didn't had much food.

Mugabe is distributing the land to the people (albeit, primarily his supporters), not to the state. The comparison is not valid.

quote: So there are 51.5 percent black murderers. If comparing with percent of black population, the numbers of blacks murderers/black population becomes even more bigger than analogical white ratings

And this can be attributable to the higher relative urban population and the relative poverty of blacks.

	13-08-2002 19:15									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic No, in fact both cases has much differences. South Africa never before white influence was an organised nation with modern economics, which were already available in Europe at a time).

So what? So they didn't have modern economics.

quote: Originally posted by Sonic So whites helped them much with for example drugs, etc.

IIRC, unless you were white, drugs were not readily available in SA. May be tonical off the shelf drugs.

quote: Originally posted by Sonic Maybe life under apartheid was bad, but whites by coming given much to the blacks in South Africa. Maybe if no whites would have settled in South Africa, it would still be somewhere in XIX age.

Are you asserting they are so stupid that they couldn't learn from other people?

quote: Originally posted by Sonic And now South Africa is still not as thid world as some of African countries north of it.

Do you realise that all those countries were once colonies too? That just indicates that SA is more of an exception than the norm of White Man's Rule.

	13-08-2002 19:45									#143
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Yes, I realise all were colonies but not all later had something that apartheid.

And Ramo, yet again, why do you think blacks has more povetry, etc. in USA?

	13-08-2002 19:47									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Zim was still offering compensation for improvements to the land. Well this gets back back to the admittedly murky area of buying stolen property. Knowingly buying stolen property is illegal. So we have to trace the whole ownership history of the farm. I'll remind you that not all white owned property is being redistributed. About 25% of the white farms are being left as is. So Zim is using some (good) discrimination on what land to take.

What was the reason for no longer offering such compensation, then?

"Knowingly buying stolen property is illegal" - True. However, IF we are discussing a farm purchased in 1981, said purchase was perfectly legal at the time. The government of Zimbabwe - at that time - was fine with it. Later, a decision was made to redistribute land, on the basis that land owned by whites was stolen. So yeah, it's a little murky.

I heard the figure of 90% of white-owned farms are being redistributed. I wonder if the discrepancy has to do with acreage as opposed to number of plots?

In general, I see a lot of people getting screwed over here - not just the white farmers - and a bunch of Zanu-PF cronies benifitting while the economy goes down the toilet. I also see an increasingly despotic regime tightening its grip on power. Not that this doesn't happen all the time all over the world, but that doesn't make it right.

-Arrian

	13-08-2002 19:50									#145
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Primarily because of societal handicaps, namely that their parents were poor, and their parents, etc., and that they tend to have more children than whites, which is a huge drain in money, and to a lesser extent, racism that many face.

	13-08-2002 20:50									#146
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Blacks make up 12% of the US population but commit 51% of the murders. That in itself is a pretty shocking satistic.

	13-08-2002 20:52									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Blacks make up 12% of the US population but commit 51% of the murders. That in itself is a pretty shocking satistic.

It is, but they are not committing them because they are black. they are committing them because blacks have less opportunities and live in worse conditions.

I'm sure the same used to be said of the Irish or Italian immigrants

	13-08-2002 20:54									#148
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So if your conditions are bad then its ok to behave like animals? Great.

	13-08-2002 20:57									#149
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No one's saying any such thing. However, non-blacks act no different under the same circumstances.

	13-08-2002 20:59									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia So if your conditions are bad then its ok to behave like animals? Great.

That is not what i am saying at all. It is a fact though that people in worse social conditions commit more crime. They doesn't make them any less guilty.

All i was saying was the murders aren't committed because they are black.