11-08-2002 05:01									#1
	New USA Sat night 1x1x Deity level game Tired of ads?

I'll give this one more go.

Reliabilty is the ONLY criteria!!!

Start around 7:30pm USA Sat night.

Anyone can play but the more experienced the better.

Will only play with at least 5 reliable players.

Rah rules inc diplo/spy limits.

Medium mixed map - cool wet if that's the best?

	11-08-2002 05:32									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I can't connect to ICQ , post IP or email it if we are playing.

berzerkr@dophnic.yi.org

	11-08-2002 08:26									#3
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Since I quit my crappy excuse for a summer job, I will be 100% for that time slot from now on. Count me in next week.

	11-08-2002 09:00									#4
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We got five now:

Berzerker, deity, Dangime, Hawkhunter and Deity Dude

... and hopefuly Hydey will make it six.

	11-08-2002 19:12									#5
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I am also interested. It's been awhile since I played anything but one nighters.

Shall we make it 'no wonders' game? I would like to play no city bribe as well.

	12-08-2002 02:47									#6
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You are IN smartfart - excellent.

I'm easy about the rules, see what the others say...

	12-08-2002 06:33									#7
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I would like to play large map - no wonders - 1x1x deity no barbs - RAH's rules for everything else

	12-08-2002 06:37									#8
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sorry i forgot this - but everyone is allowed to ask for one restart before 3500bc

Those would be my ideal rules

PS And maybe a gentlemen's agreement on no "black clicking"

	13-08-2002 09:16									#9
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If everyone ask for one restart about 3500 bc with 6 or 7 players we wont even start a game on 1st session.
6-7 players should have large map to play on and no wonder game secures more or less balanced game.

	14-08-2002 03:21									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude sorry i forgot this - but everyone is allowed to ask for one restart before 3500bc Those would be my ideal rules PS And maybe a gentlemen's agreement on no "black clicking"

Too impractical DD. Let's just roll with it but if everyone is happy I could get a fair map made up with Dang, that we would all see; or a 3rd party could do us one. Where is cavebear when you need him!?

I agree on the black clicking. I hate that.

Brush up on Rah Rules everyone and let's be clear about the diplo spy limits - I need to brush up too....

	14-08-2002 03:31									#11
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If we do indeed play on a large map, its rare that a position is really game destorying. There's only so many cities you can have early any way, and after that phaze diplomacy should kick it.

But any other questions about the map, or huts or anything else? I assume the diplo limitations are no city bribe....unit bribe ok.

	14-08-2002 07:25									#12
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Actually I think having no Wonders at all is slightly boring. Even thgopugh I rarely use Wonders it is more interesting to have them so what about one wonder each? If no one builds Apollo or Manhattens tough! Folks will think twice about what they build.

So, one Wonder each incl Apollos/and Man's. Yes?

	15-08-2002 05:39									#13
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If I understood you correctly you mean one wonder each and ban Apollo and Manhattan (which will never going to happen anyway).
Even if you don't ban those two I highly doubt someone will wait to spend his wonder slot on such a late wonders.
You didn't said anything about GW. RAH rules prevent this one too.

I suggest we vote for settings. Here's mine:

- no wonders
- no city bribe
- no trade or gifting anything
- noone is allowed to research espionage
- large map,continents
- no timer
- no micromanaging during your turn

Did I forget something?

	15-08-2002 09:27									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SmartFart I suggest we vote for settings. Here's mine: - no wonders - no city bribe - no trade or gifting anything - noone is allowed to research espionage - large map,continents - no timer - no micromanaging during your turn Did I forget something?

WONDERS:

I agree with no wonders except I think Apollo should be allowed. I'd love to play an MP game that ended with AC. I think Manhatten's should be allowed too, earth lived thru it lets see if we can.


RESTARTS:

My thought about restart wasn't that everyone would take a restart. I agree if we had 6 restarts at 3500bc the first session would be nothing but restarts. Let's look at it another way though. I expect/hope that this game will go several sessions probably months. I would hate to play a game for months if I felt I was doomed from the beginning.

I would probably only ask for a restart if I were placed on all mountains, desert and jungle. I wouldn't expect that there would be alot of requests for restarts because you would only get one and might get a horrible position on the restart.

The idea isn't to restart until you get a perfect or even good position, its just to avoid having to play a horrible one for months thus avoiding people dropping because of a horrible start.

I don't like the idea of a premade map to insure fairness. They become predictable.


BLACK CLICKING:

I would like a gentleman's agreement about no black clicking and map peeking (after all they are the same thing) If we're gonna black click why not just reveal the map to everyone from the beginning.


TIMER:

I would like to suggest an extremely long timer maybe 60 mins. From my experience it has 3 advantages

1) It keeps people on their toes.

2) It provides an actual assessment of how long people are taking. Hopefully this will help us avoid the debates in the forums about who is slow and who isn't.

3) You can tell if the game is frozen immediately.


MAP:

I agree with large map but I prefer an island map to continents. It adds the naval element of the game.

I also think it should be 3 bil wet warm.


BARBS:

RAH's calls for raging. I'm OK with any setting, I just think it should be discussed.

To sum it up:

No wonders (except Apollo and Manhatten's)
No city bribe
no trading or gifting anything
noone is allowed to research espionage
large map, islands 3bil wet warm
Extremely long timer
No black clicking or map peeking
Each player allowed 1 restart before 3500bc
Raging Barbs
RAH's Rules for everything not covered

How was that for a long post

	16-08-2002 01:52									#15
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Wonders - I don't care one way or the other. If we play 1 wonder games though you should have to save the slot of Apollo. Victory conditions for games like these are very tense and such an easy way out as a spaceship should be less easy to come by in my opinion. Actually 1 wonder is best since everyone will get one instead of a few people getting them all.

Restarting - The larger the map the less likely this situation is what I say, but still if immediately entering the game and assessing the starting position as impossible to fix (I assume 2 settlers so at least plains could be irrigated in the first years) Then it would have to be a radically bad starting position....all desert, hills/mountation or jungles and swamps and such.
But the thing is, 21 jungle is bad yeah, but 18 jungle and 3 grassland sheild is fine in my book. As long as the capital can get joining.

Timer - I've never had any time issues thrown at me I believe.....so I wont argue against a timer as long as its flexable for people fighting the occasional war.

Barbarians - I suggest at least some barbarian activity. This forces people to garrison their cities. Raging isnt the best though since barbarians tend to be too large a factor and its usually an uneven one. So I'd suggest roaming, just as a measure to force garrisons.

Black Clicking - All it tells you is if its new land or not or am I missing something? Anyway I wont do it if you wont do it.

Tech Trading / Map Trading - Yea or nay? I could care less about gold since the huge bug involved in trading gold is a huge cheat. And units open the door for double moves, another cheat.

	16-08-2002 04:51									#16
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Great contributions guys!

Will post later on.. really looking forward to this game.

	16-08-2002 04:52									#17
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Hydey can't play and we have enough players so we need a good host. ANYONE?

	16-08-2002 07:00									#18
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Wonders

Apollo's and Manhattens aren't Wonders in the true sense because once they are discovered everyone has them. They are a "community wonder"

MY vote on Wonders - and I feel pretty strong on this one - is either they are all open, or no wonders except "community wonders"

The 1 wonder each, IMO, is the worst of all compromises. It takes the entire gamble out of getting a wonder away (i.e. 1) you might not get it OR 2) if you dont start building them quick someone might get too many)

1 wonder each allows everyone a freebie without working for it.

Either restrict them totally or allow them - no 1/2 a$$ compromises.

	16-08-2002 12:39									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Consensus so far inc my own view:

- no wonders (except Apollo and Manhatten's)
- no city bribe
- no trade or gifting anything
- no one is allowed to research espionage
- medium to large map, mixed
- 3 bill wet warm or cool???? (what was that setting we had Dang>?)
- 60 min timer for the measurement
- no micromanaging during your turn
- No black clicking or map peeking
- Everyone confirms their start before 3700bc
- Roving Barbs
- RAH's Rules for everything not covered

What say Berzerker and Hawk?

	16-08-2002 22:24									#20
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I used used wet and cool......that usually gives more grasslands and forests. 3 bill just makes land forms come in larger buches. Your more likely to have actual mountain ranges than just some lone mountain.

	17-08-2002 21:55									#21
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It dosent matter to me what the settings are or about wonders. just as long as i know what the rules are when we start... i'll see ya all tonight... i'm not a 1x1 Deity player anyway.. so i'll get creamed

	17-08-2002 22:58									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No wonders is fine, but how can we not research espionage? Won't we be forced into researching it sooner or later?

Btw, the computer expert here is leaving for college and we get knocked off the internet by lightning pretty easy.
I will spend a few days/hours trying to get informed on how to reconnect, but my reliability may suffer

I take it we will not allow the ai to profit from wonders? It would really mess things up if the ai built Leos and we let the ai to benefit from unit upgrades.

Is tech stealing okay? What are these dip limits?

	17-08-2002 23:28									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Eps is a dead end tech, so techincally you can go around it, although there is the chance that the computer desides you cant have any options besides eps, in which case we'd just edit out diplomats obsoliteness.

	18-08-2002 02:38									#24
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This game is going to be very messed up... your playing on a huge map for starters.. If the AI is playing your special rules would go out the window... But by far the biggest factor will be caravans to other islands, in our last game we where all on one island which pretty much negated the bonus but in this one if your on many islands your looking at a 300% early caravan bonus, the first few civs that meet and take avantage of caravans will get a huge lead and the others will have no chance to catch up.

	18-08-2002 04:29									#25
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No AI's

No trading to other civs

therefore kill civ on retirement...

OK>?

	18-08-2002 04:32									#26
	Suffering from ads?

not huge map either..

somewhere between normal and large I suggest

	18-08-2002 04:41									#27
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- no wonders (except Apollo and Manhatten's)
- no city bribe
- no trade with other civs or gifting anything
- no one is allowed to research espionage
- medium to large map, mixed
- 3 or 4 bill wet warm or cool - both are fine by me
- 60 min timer for the measurement
- no micromanaging during your turn
- No black clicking or map peeking
- Everyone confirms their start before 3700bc
- Roving Barbs
- RAH's Rules for everything not covered
- tech stealing OK I reckon
- Keep Dips as they are?
- Espionage when forced into it but don't build spies (edit later)
- kill civ on retire and go back to previous auto save if someone drops (have auto saves on and save as often as you can as insurance in case you need to send it to DD host)

OK?

	18-08-2002 16:26									#28
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Great 5 1/2 hour session start to this game.

Berz and smart shot to the lead in the pg around 400BC with Dang close behind. Me,DD and Hawk are around the middle but Hawk and I have way less cities than anyone else.

I don't understand smart's city placement that I've seen so far. He seems to be ICS'ing; and Berz, I'm surprised that you're sleezing too jj

Sorry about the confusion over tech stealing.
I sent a diplo to get an embassy with smart and he said he would let me steal if I let him. Then I realised I could steal techs which was clearly within the posted rules. I stole a tech eventually and then got an embassy.
Then I thought that this was a bit cosy and not in the spirit of the rules so I brought it up in King Chat. This is not smart's fault but upon reflection I think smart should have attempted to expell my diplo.

I apologise for not being on the ball here. But in the mean time I think smart's approach has been taken up with Berz which could be a tech bloc. If so I really think this is not on - no alliances, no trading anything was the idea; so we shouldn't get around it behind the scenes.

I let smart steal one tech back off me but from now on I'll be expelling... I think we all should avoid cosy deals.

	18-08-2002 19:23									#29
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Deity...I don't see a problem in tech stealing at all. Days of monarchy are,more or less, over and so is tech stealing from civs you have peace treaties. If you wanna keep your civ from anarchy,thats it.

I am not ICS'ing. I actually build improvements,but 4 spaces away is optimal distance between cities to maximize usefulness of given land especially when you run out of space so early like I did.

Too bad I lost connection before I finish celebrating,but hell...plenty of time next saturday and this time I wont be late.

	22-08-2002 03:58									#30
	Remove this text

Just had a chat with DD and thougt I better check everyone's understanding of cara trading.

I understood that you could only trade with your own cities. Is this what everyone else thinks?
That is, you can't send caras to other civs. Right?