14-08-2002 23:15									#151
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If they had done it more forcefully in 1916 then there wouldn't have been a Republic of Ireland.

	14-08-2002 23:15									#152
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"How do you think the rest of Europe, the USA and the rest of the world would have reacted to occupation of the Republic of Ireland on the grounds of anti-terrorism."

Isn't it being occupied now?

	14-08-2002 23:19									#153
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I think he meant by a foreign power.

	14-08-2002 23:22									#154
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Britain is a foreign power.

	14-08-2002 23:32									#155
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quote: Originally posted by ThePantaloonDog The US Constitution has allowed a lot of protections such as allowing US citizens to be jailed for an indefinite amount of time for the "War Agaisnt Terror".

Unless you can somehow support that claim it doesn't. Only if a person is convicted of a crime and the sentence is for life can that happen. US citizens have the right to a speedy trial. The Supreme Court has defined that pretty clearly as being within 30 days of and arrest. A person can only be held without arrest for 3 days. The accused does have the option to give up the right to a speedy trial for the purposes of assembling a defense, which can take a lot time occasionally.

Perhaps you think that members of the Al Queda network are US citizens. They aren't and they aren't protected by the US Constitution. I think that is why Bush is holding them at Guantanomo so he can avoid holding them in the US itself where they might fall under civilian laws even though they are not citizens.

	14-08-2002 23:41									#156
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Ethelred, at least two US citizens have been held incumincado for much longer than three days. Jose Padilla and at least one other citizen have been denied access to lawyers during questioning, held in military brigs, etc. Even when told by courts to allow the lawyers the government has refused.

The point to make, however, is this is extremely rare.

	14-08-2002 23:46									#157
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's not that he's speaking his mind that I mind. It's that he's speaking for us. And frankly, I find his stance a little hypocritical, talking about how great we are cuz we kick ass when his country lives in our shadow and doesn't do anything.

Doesn't do anything. Right. Excuse me, but our troops were over there until a few weeks ago as part of the coalition. Four of our soldiers were killed in "friendly fire". Or have you forgotten that? I won't. I live in the city where those boys were stationed out of. Tell their families that they didn't do anything. No, they only lost their lives trying to defend the rest of the WORLD against terrorism.

	14-08-2002 23:50									#158
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quote: Ethelred, at least two US citizens have been held incumincado for much longer than three day

And over a thousand immigrants, legal or otherwise, have been held in similiar conditions. It's been well-established that they too are entitled to proper due process.

This is your War on Terror on drugs.

Dave

	14-08-2002 23:51									#159
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave And over a thousand immigrants, legal or otherwise, have been held in similiar conditions. It's been well-established that they too are entitled to proper due process.

The Courts are finally starting to sort that mess out though.

	14-08-2002 23:53									#160
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I find it quite amusing that NYE makes all these arguments over the brilliance of the US and how every other country is a failure because it didn't put up the same level of resources as the US in the Afghan campaign. Excuse me, but what exactly did Canada do that was so special? Did it donate the same level of support as the UK? I don't think so. The US was very much running that show, and whether the whole scenario was completely political gesticulation, the US wanted to perform the operation very much on it's own, but wanted to demonstrate that it's allies were overflowing with support and offering military assistance but were 'politely declined' as it wanted to exact it's revenge on it's own.

But NYE doesn't understand that.

You see why people think Canada is the 51st state?

Oh and Cali, what kind of a post was that? Kindly do not return to the commonwealth again

	14-08-2002 23:57									#161
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We didn't do anything more special than anyone else. It just bothers me when people make blanket statements like that "oh, they didn't do anything". Undoubtedly the US is the strongest country in the world. Undoubtedly they could have carried this out on their own, no problem. I think that asking other countries to help out was the right thing to do though. I believe in fighting for freedom and was proud that my country is a part of that fight. We may be smaller and a hell of a lot weaker, but we were there and will be there again.

	15-08-2002 00:00									#162
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Loif. You're basing your posts on a strawman put in place by che, not by anything said by NYE.

What is this? Tag team?

	15-08-2002 00:01									#163
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ethelred, at least two US citizens have been held incumincado for much longer than three days. Jose Padilla and at least one other citizen have been denied access to lawyers during questioning, held in military brigs, etc. Even when told by courts to allow the lawyers the government has refused. The point to make, however, is this is extremely rare.

However he claimed the Supreme Court has contenenced this action. The people involved in stonewalling like this are liable to wind up in jail for contempt of court.

Hey mayby they can nail Bush on if it goes far enough.

	15-08-2002 00:04									#164
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave And over a thousand immigrants, legal or otherwise, have been held in similiar conditions. It's been well-established that they too are entitled to proper due process. This is your War on Terror on drugs. Dave

Its been well established that the due process is one of proving they aren't citizens.

The alleged War on Drugs isn't mine.

	15-08-2002 00:08									#165
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Not a strawman, DanS, hyperbole.

Loif, I was exaggerating for emphasis. The truth is, I'm well aware that Canada is contributing only what we will allow you to contribute, and that like most of our allies, you wished to contribute much, much more. Heck, if it weren't for our Allies, the Afgani government would probably already have fallen, showing the US "concern" about post-Taliban Afganistan for the lie that it is.

However, it irritated the heck out of me that NYE was talking about how great the US was compared to the Euros for their lack of particiaption when Canada is in exactly the same situation.

	15-08-2002 00:28									#166
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Yeah man they should make pot legal man...

	15-08-2002 00:46									#167
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "How do you think the rest of Europe, the USA and the rest of the world would have reacted to occupation of the Republic of Ireland on the grounds of anti-terrorism." Isn't it being occupied now?

I knew many Americans were ignorant of the situation in Ireland, I didn't realise you were one of them.

The Republic of Ireland (most of the island) is an independent country. The north part of the island is British territory - to which the Republic of Ireland has no legal claim.

The province is administered by Great Britain, and British troops are stationed there to maintain the peace.

How these facts can be construed as Britain occupying the Republic of Ireland (an internationally recognised country) is beyond me. If you were playing dumb, well done, if you really were ignorant, my condolences.

To clarrify my question, how would people react to British forces bombing Dublin, Cork etc, followed by a land incursion to depose the Irish government for there lack of help in apprehending IRA terrorists?

Or as BD thought, how would the world react if Israel sent the IDF to Ireland to occupy the country for harbouring IRA terrorists who helped Palestinian terrorists.

If you can justify a British incursion, I will forward your recommendation to Tony Blair, and George Bush Jr (for approval of course).

	15-08-2002 00:49									#168
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara However, it irritated the heck out of me that NYE was talking about how great the US was compared to the Euros for their lack of particiaption when Canada is in exactly the same situation.

Odd since you also say it was the US that limited Canadian participation. All NYE was doing was taking on the Euro Trolls. Hard to understand how you could get irked over that.

	15-08-2002 00:54									#169
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"How these facts can be construed as Britain occupying the Republic of Ireland (an internationally recognised country) is beyond me. If you were playing dumb, well done, if you really were ignorant, my condolences."

I was doing neither. I just don't recognize Britain's occupation of Northern Ireland. It is rightly part of the Republic of Ireland.

	15-08-2002 00:58									#170
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The government of the Republic of Ireland disagrees with you.

	15-08-2002 00:59									#171
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quote: Perhaps you think that members of the Al Queda network are US citizens. They aren't and they aren't protected by the US Constitution.

Actually, SCOTUS has ruled that non-citizens have the right not to be indefinitely detained. See Janet Reno v. Kim Ho Ma.

	15-08-2002 00:59									#172
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The government of the Republic of Ireland disagrees with you.

So what?

	15-08-2002 01:02									#173
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The point - Are you going to answer my question about invading the recognised country of the Republic of Ireland, as opposed to your opinion of what the country should be?

	15-08-2002 01:07									#174
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I was doing neither. I just don't recognize Britain's occupation of Northern Ireland. It is rightly part of the Republic of Ireland.

Would you support an Irish invasion and attack on Britain to retake the Province?

	15-08-2002 01:10									#175
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Oh you mean occupying the parts of Ireland that aren't Northern Ireland?

It's really tough to say. If you would have occupied parts of Ireland that aren't Northern Ireland but were the staging grounds for activities in Northern Ireland or Britain, then you might have gotten away with it.

As I understand it, there were a couple of these areas, no?

"Would you support an Irish invasion and attack on Britain to retake the Province?"

No, no. Why do it forcefully, when 30 years from now (or whenever) a referendum will decide the issue once and for all anyway?

	15-08-2002 01:17									#176
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Glad to see not all Americans think violence is the only answer.

I really hope Scotland declares independence soon. When they do, NI will become their problem again. As an Englishman I hate my country having to be in the Province.

	15-08-2002 01:19									#177
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Loif. You're basing your posts on a strawman put in place by che, not by anything said by NYE. What is this? Tag team?

Not at all. I don't agree with a lot of what NYE said. Nothing against him personally, just a different way of viewing world politics.

	15-08-2002 01:22									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Actually, SCOTUS has ruled that non-citizens have the right not to be indefinitely detained. See Janet Reno v. Kim Ho Ma.

Good. I was largely talking about the claims that citizens were being detained indefinitly and that it was somehow Consititutional. This shows why Bush is holding the Al Queda members in Guatanamo.

	15-08-2002 01:22									#179
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not a strawman, DanS, hyperbole. Loif, I was exaggerating for emphasis. The truth is, I'm well aware that Canada is contributing only what we will allow you to contribute, and that like most of our allies, you wished to contribute much, much more. Heck, if it weren't for our Allies, the Afgani government would probably already have fallen, showing the US "concern" about post-Taliban Afganistan for the lie that it is. However, it irritated the heck out of me that NYE was talking about how great the US was compared to the Euros for their lack of particiaption when Canada is in exactly the same situation.

I understand. I think you have a great country and am glad that we are neighbours. Even though I say over and over again that I am Canadian, not American, we are more alike than any countries in the world. You can be sure that whatever Bush decides to do, Chretien will back him.

	15-08-2002 01:40									#180
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To be honest I don't blame many - not all Americans for believing themselves to be superior (and not just in terms of the military or the economy).

In the US the stars and stripes fly everywhere. In a populated areas it is everywhere. And not just in flags - bumper stickers, t-shirts, posters. The phrase 'God Bless America' is everywhere. Though Americans most likely will not see a problem with this, Europeans are more likely to see it as arrogant blind patriotism. You will not see such displays in most other western democracies - and in most cases, where there are national flags there are the flags of other countries next to them.

To be honest Americans need to understand that to Europeans this looks incredibly closed-minded - and a painful reminder of where political carelessness and ultra-patriotism can lead. But then it must take an incredibly string-willed (or rebellious) person to not absorb the displays in America - all day, every day.