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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Miller
wow, a lot of atheists here (I don't remember past polls being so atheist heavy)
Jon Miller |
Its Sunday. Maybe all the Christians are busy.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by loinburger
Agnosticism is not a metaphysical belief, it is an epistemological belief. You can believe in god(s) (a metaphysical belief) even though you don't believe that said god(s) can be proven to exist (an epistemological belief). So if somebody says "do you believe in God," and you respond "I'm an Agnostic," then you've failed to answer their question. |
You are still just trying to blur the distinction.
Answering Agnostic DOES answer the question. Agnostics don't believe in a god. They don't actively disbelieve either. If a person believes in a god but thinks the existence of a god can't be proven they are NOT Agnostic. There a lot of people exactly like that. Lots of christians are fully aware that god cannot be proven. Just how many people have you ever seen claim there is proof for god except among fundamentalists that think their beliefs constitutes proof.
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
While Einstein often spoke of god in terms that sounded like he believed in a god it seems mostly matter of putting a label of convenience on his thinking. Think of it as objectifying the laws of nature.
Einstein on this subject:
From
http://www.religioustolerance.org/deism.htm
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. "
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own - a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we can dimly perceive and to try humbly to comprehend even an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in Nature."
From
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/ebtomcat.htm
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
From
http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/quotes.html
"I have never imputed to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
I would guess that he was halfway between an Agnostic and a Deist. |
Thank you Etherlred. I was going to get a couple of his quotes after I read that post that dude made. But you beat me to it. I would say by your definition he is an agnostic, but by my definition a weak atheist (my definitions being like loinburger's, if i read them right - i just skimmed through). But the point of posting that pic was that he is my idol of science and mathematics, not the fact of his religious beliefs - I could care less if he was a fundamentalist muslim .
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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these are my definitions of the terms presently at arguement. I dunno if they are completely correct or not (though I think they are open to interpretation - there may not be anyone correct definition for someof them), but they are how I have used the words:
Deists- believe in clockmaker theory of God creating the universe and then running away and letting it go to its own devices, watching from a distance.
Agnostics- never deny the existance of a God, but just say it can not be proven whether one does or does not exist.
weak atheist(my definition of myself)- denys the existance of certain god(s), but finds it ignorant to completely rule out the possibility of the existance of supreme beings without ample evidence..
strong atheism- denys the existance of all gods. Finds the idea of supreme beings as being proposterous.
I am a weak Atheist, denying the existance of the God(s) spoke of in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and various mytholygies as false for various reasons. I think Jesus Christ was a normal man made into a 'tall tale', like Davey Crockett or Daniel Boone, but just to a much greater extent. Though, I dunno enough to rule out the possibilty of a supreme being, though this is dependent on ones definition of what exactly a supreme being is.
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loinburger
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Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
Answering Agnostic DOES answer the question. Agnostics don't believe in a god. |
Agnostics believe that god's existence has not been proven or disproven, or that god's existence can never be proven or disproven, but being an agnostic does not necessarily mean that one believe or doesn't believe in god. Atheists don't believe in god, agnostics believe that god's existence hasn't or cannot be proven.
quote:
They don't actively disbelieve either. |
They can disbelieve, they just acknowledge that there is no proof or that there can never be any proof for their beliefs. That's what makes them beliefs--you can't prove them.
quote:
If a person believes in a god but thinks the existence of a god can't be proven they are NOT Agnostic. |
Sure they would. Defintion of an agnostic, from dictionary.com, is "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God." The definition doesn't specify whether or not the person believes in god, though.
quote:
There a lot of people exactly like that. Lots of christians are fully aware that god cannot be proven. |
Yup. Basically, if somebody isn't an agnostic, then they're an irrational lunatic.
quote:
Just how many people have you ever seen claim there is proof for god except among fundamentalists that think their beliefs constitutes proof. |
Not many (although there are some atheists who claim the opposite using similarly nebulous proof), and they're all irrational lunatics.
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Felch
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Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Demonstrating your 'stereotypically American' ignorance on the issue eh? Dubya would be proud  |
Felipe Fernandez-Armesto, a Professorial Fellow of Queen Mary, U of London, shares this "stereotypically American" view. In Millenium he described Communism's religious aspects, such as the heaven on Earth of a Communist state, the moral codes, the compulsion to proselytise, its pattern of waxing and waning in influence, and the simple fact that it offers a replacement for traditional religions. Communism has quasi-religious tracts, promises for the faithful, and penalties for those who go against it, as well as a totally unrealistic notion of how people act in real life.
While Communism doesn't have invisible people living in the sky, it can be viewed as a sort of religion, if you don't have a stereotypically British narrow-mindedness about such things.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by loinburger
Yup. Basically, if somebody isn't an agnostic, then they're an irrational lunatic. |
They could be a rational lunatic. Or just irrational. Religion is inheirenltly irrational. Many people are highly selective in what they are irrational about.
My sister has an irrational fear of grasshoppers.
I could swear that your definition of Agnostic makes half the christians in the US Agnostic. Try my version. It makes sense.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
Nearly every Christian I know has claimed their is ample proof that God exists and they call me an ignorant fool if I dont believe in Him. |
You must be surrounded by Southern Baptists or something similar. I sure never ran into that with many Catholics and I have even heard priests admit that they have faith not proof.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Felch X
Felipe Fernandez-Armesto, a Professorial Fellow of Queen Mary, U of London, shares this "stereotypically American" view. In Millenium he described Communism's religious aspects, such as the heaven on Earth of a Communist state, the moral codes, the compulsion to proselytise, its pattern of waxing and waning in influence, and the simple fact that it offers a replacement for traditional religions. Communism has quasi-religious tracts, promises for the faithful, and penalties for those who go against it, as well as a totally unrealistic notion of how people act in real life.
While Communism doesn't have invisible people living in the sky, it can be viewed as a sort of religion, if you don't have a stereotypically British narrow-mindedness about such things. |
yes, religion can be many things besides tradition 'religion'
most assuredly captialism, communism, and nationalism have all been peoples religions
as have many other thigns
this is with the broader more abstract definition of religion (but one I like)
Jon Miller
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
You must be surrounded by Southern Baptists or something similar. I sure never ran into that with many Catholics and I have even heard priests admit that they have faith not proof. |
Yes, actually i am surrounded by southern baptists, and some episcopaleans, methodist, and lutherans as well, but mostly southern baptsist. The Catholics Ive known (coming from a catholic family) do tend to be more down to earth, though not always.
quote:
you cannot fault people for not taking a logic class |
oh, but I can fault them, if for not having taken a logic class, then for not having a natrual sense of logic.
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by loinburger
Nothing wrong with that. If they've got a solid epistemological belief system like agnosticism, then their metaphysics won't be ****ing up their lives too much. |
Try telling that to the Catholic priests that say its faith and there is no proof. I am sure they will differ with if you call them Agnostic. They might just consider it a troll. That would be the best result you could expect.
quote:
At the same time, your version of atheism is basically the same thing as nihilism. My version doesn't have so much baggage. |
Nihilism is something else. Even a Deist could be a Nihilist. That just means that since nothing matters since there is no purpose to the universe. Its Atheism with suicidal depression and the lack of courage to carry through with their beliefs. Summed in "Life sucks then you die". Nihilism sucks.
quote:
Generally it's all well and good to blend agnosticism and atheism like you're doing, though, since most non-atheists won't admit to being agnostics. |
I am not blending. That is what you are still doing.
After all there might be a god of some sort. Even a christian god although not the fundamentalist version of it. It would be nice if there was an afterlife. Wanting an afterlife is not the same as believing in one. It would be nice OUR life had some purpose besides the continuation of our species. The question that arises from that of course is, what is that gods reason for existence?
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
Ethelred, from what I've read, by my standards you are a weak atheist like myself, but that is by my definition. |
The catch with Weak Atheism is that is EXACTLY the same as being an Agnostic. There is no need for the concept except that some people have been intimidated by people that want to pretend that Agnostics are fence sitters.
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
I know many Babtists. Those are the ones who think Barbra Streisand is god, right?
I'm agnostic, not Atheist. I refuse to lump them together.
Your "weak Atheist" definition is, in fact, agnosticism. Atheism is, simply, the belief there is no god(s). |
Ok, I am a Christian first, my belief is in JESUS CHRIST as my LORD AND SAVIOR .He is the Living Son of GOD in Heaven. I have been been called by God to serve at a Baptist Church. I have held many positions, from Sunday School teacher, to a Discipleship training leader to Deacon. In a week I am headed to Jutiapia Honduras to help my Lord build a church for the folks down there. I dont believe in Barbara Streisdand as being any more than a singer. I really dont even care for her singing, no offense, just not my type. I do know this, if you believe in CHRIST as the One whom died for your sins, you go to Heaven. If not H E L L . Now, there is a small division between Heaven and Hell. 18", that being the distance between Heart knowledge of CHRIST and head knowledge of whatever you believe.
Truth Heals.
Truth Hurts.
Christ is the Truth. He heals, he paid the price at Calvary for all sinners, yours, mine and all others. Simply believ in your heart, confess with your lips and you shall be forgiven your sins!
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by loinburger
I'm not going to use an incorrect definition just because a bunch of priests don't know what the term means.
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No your going to use an incorrect definition because you are stubborn. Considering the coiner of the term I will stick with my definition which is the meaning most would think is correct. I sincerly doubt that Thomas Huxley would agree with you either. He would for once agree with the priests. Of course he wasn't debating with Catholic priests when he was Darwin's Bulldog.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll
Ok, I am a Christian first, my belief is in JESUS CHRIST as my LORD AND SAVIOR .He is the Living Son of GOD in Heaven. I have been been called by God to serve at a Baptist Church. I have held many positions, from Sunday School teacher, to a Discipleship training leader to Deacon. In a week I am headed to Jutiapia Honduras to help my Lord build a church for the folks down there. I dont believe in Barbara Streisdand as being any more than a singer. I really dont even care for her singing, no offense, just not my type. I do know this, if you believe in CHRIST as the One whom died for your sins, you go to Heaven. If not H E L L . Now, there is a small division between Heaven and Hell. 18", that being the distance between Heart knowledge of CHRIST and head knowledge of whatever you believe.
Truth Heals.
Truth Hurts.
Christ is the Truth. He heals, he paid the price at Calvary for all sinners, yours, mine and all others. Simply believ in your heart, confess with your lips and you shall be forgiven your sins! |
Wow. You are awarded tonights prize for "missed humor."
"Babs" is a short name for "Barbara," and Streisand is often referred to as "Babs."
Hence, the joke to his misspelling of "Baptists" as "Babtists..."
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Ethelred
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll
Ok, I am a Christian first, my belief is in JESUS CHRIST as my LORD AND SAVIOR .He is the Living Son of GOD in Heaven. I have been been called by God to serve at a Baptist Church. |
This delusion of yours, when did it occur? What drugs had you been abusing? Or was it just self-hypnosis through intense prayer.
quote:
I have held many positions, from Sunday School teacher, to a Discipleship training leader to Deacon. In a week I am headed to Jutiapia Honduras to help my Lord build a church for the folks down there. |
Does this mean Apolyton will have one less troll to kick around? Or does it mean that AH will have to work overtime trolling the waters of Apolyton?
quote:
I dont believe in Barbara Streisdand as being any more than a singer. I really dont even care for her singing, no offense, just not my type. |
Well you are seriously wrong on this. The demi-goddess to gay men is also an actress and has even directed. Pretty good at comedy. Better than her singing in my view. Then again I don't care for that kind of music generally.
quote:
I do know this, if you believe in CHRIST as the One whom died for your sins, you go to Heaven. If not H E L L . |
This is clearly not a good sign. Mayb you are trolling again. Even the Catholic Church has accepted the idea that people that have never been exposed to the bizzare concepts of christianity won't be condemmed to eternal fire simply for being ignorant. It is a shameful thing to be as narrow minded as you are. Appalling. Must be that stone head that trolls have.
quote:
Now, there is a small division between Heaven and Hell. 18", that being the distance between Heart knowledge of CHRIST and head knowledge of whatever you believe. |
Here is some head knowledge. Hearts pump blood. They don't know anthing but to contract when stimulated.
Of course what you are really saying is the you don't know anything and don't want to know anything that might open your eyes to reality. Blind acceptence is a virtue to tiny minds as they simply are confused by thinking.
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Truth Heals.
Truth Hurts. |
I will go along with that.
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Christ is the Truth. |
He was a man. He died. That is all.
Tell me why did a god have to kill 2000 pigs just to cast out two demons? Such awe inpiring power that must have been. Two people acting strange so Jesus harrasses them and then herds other mens livelyhood over a cliff and claims it was done to cast out two measely demons. A truly competent godhead would simply have banished the demons without a blood sacrifice.
Yes that nonsense is in the Bible. Bet Troll thinks its real.
Assuming he believes this narrow minded crap he spouting.
quote:
He heals, he paid the price at Calvary for all sinners, yours, mine and all others. |
Makes no sense at all. Why couldn't god forgive the awfull sins without killing himself? The whole concept has always sounded more than slightly deranged.
quote:
Simply believ in your heart, confess with your lips and you shall be forgiven your sins! |
Simply burn out my brain and deny reality and I too will be close minded vegatable.
No thanks. I will stick with REAL truth instead of labeling nonsense and mysticism as such.
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Grandpa Troll
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I owe..I owe..it's off to work I go
Jul 2000
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
Troll, may I ask you somethin?
Well, since I dont have time for a reply I will go ahead and ask it, but you dont have to answer. Do you only accept Christ as your savior because you fear going to to Hell? Or is there a more meaningful reason? I dunno, it is just that when I was in my early teens I began to ask alot of religious questions and seek out the answers. I found by doing some thinking that I never really believed in Christ from what I was told about in Sunday school or from what I read in the Bible, but I really only believed in him just in case. I believed in him because I feared Hell, that is all. The only thing that kept me Christian for the next few years was my fear of going to Hell, and that is all. Then my answers that I had found from all my questions and thinking (I have many arguements against many religions) overpowered what I now call an irrational fear and I am now a weak atheist or agnostic or whatever you want to call it.
Kman |
I accept Christ because of my convictions that he paid the price for my sins, one thing I cannot do to get into Heaven, pay the price for my sins.
I believe in Him and he guides me through life. Oh, and by the way, if you are a Christian, and only Christ and you know that, you are and allways will be. You may "backslide" and then you merely need to repent or turn away from the path you are on in order to be forgiven.
I do, by the way, "fear" Hell, for that would be eternal seperation from God and his Son Jesus Christ.
And as for the previous poster about "Babs"...ok..Jokes on me, funny-fynny 
I am slow
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Capt Dizle
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Why is Baptist listed as if it were not Christian protestant and btw its misspelled.
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18-08-2002 23:17
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